How to Build Your Personal Brand as a Marketer

James Lawrence: Today I am here with Fleur Brown. Fleur, welcome to the pod. 

Fleur Brown: Thanks, James. It's really great to be here. 

James Lawrence: It's really good to have you on. So Fleur is the author of The Business of Being You: Personal Brand Secrets of Celebrities and CEOs. She was the founder of Australia's first-ever startup agency called The Launch Group, which was an agency that she oversaw for over 15 years. She was part of the team that brought TED out to Australia a few years back. In previous roles, she's worked as head of corporate communications for the Seven Network, and director of comms, marketing and tourism for the City of Sydney. She's currently back in the corporate environment as chief industry affairs officer at the Australian Retailers Association. Fleur, I think first of all, you helped me overcome my absolute pathological fear of public speaking. Now here I am hosting a podcast. I'll forever be indebted to you for that. Fleur was running courses in personal branding. I was lucky enough to take a slot when she had one available and learned so much from it. In that time you've published your book and I thought I had to get you on, and I had to get you to talk on this topic, and it's been a while to get our calendars to align, but thanks for making the time. 

Fleur Brown: Oh total pleasure. It's going to be a really good one. 

James Lawrence: So I think the structure of the book is, I think, something that we can kind of use to guide the conversation. And most of the listeners to the pod are marketers either working in an in-house environment or working on the client side. But I think it'd be really interesting to hear from you; why did you write a book on personal branding and how did it come together? 

Fleur Brown: Yeah, look, it's a great question. It is an area of absolute passion and it's a pleasure to talk about it today. I found myself constantly being asked out for coffee catch-ups with a whole range of individuals, and I think the one that stands out the most in my memory is a woman who sat on about seven different boards. She was incredibly influential and connected. She even had media connections, and she was asking me the most basic questions like, how do I put together a keynote speech? Or how do I go about getting some personal sponsorship? How do I get myself in the media? And she had an entourage of people in her various roles who were there to support her with those things. But when it came down to her actually promoting her own identity outside of that portfolio of interests, she was a beginner. That was pretty reminiscent of many, many conversations I'd had, in fact, hundreds over the years whether it would be with entrepreneurs who were founding startups, working inside companies for CEOs or working with celebrities. They lacked that sort of basic skill set. 

Fleur Brown: And it meant that if they left a position where they had that support, they were sort of out on their own. I recognise that there were so many changes in the workplace, and we've certainly seen some of them come to bear through the pandemic where you've got, I would call them corporate refugees. You've got people who sort of have detached or semi-detached from an organisation, either emotionally or mentally or in actual reality, there might be contracting, they might have a portfolio career, there might be building a startup, and they no longer have that sort of safe space to land where you're shepherded through your corporate life. That's where your career takes shape. A lot of that now is down to the individual to navigate, and they know that they need to look after their own interests in that area. So for all of those reasons, as well as giving a voice to people who really have some important work to get out there into the field, I felt like it was time to give people these tools, and then we'd see some new voices coming through. Particularly when it comes to people who are running climate change initiatives, for example, running a media campaign might not be the core skill set, but we desperately need to hear from them. 

James Lawrence: As marketers, I think we can relate to that. Where often the best product doesn't win. It's the best marketing of a product works. And often that relates to the personal brand space where you'll have two people that are equivalents, and one of them will have that ability to almost market themselves really effectively and have the confidence to step up and get to the outside world, those messages, and then you'll have someone who's just as good at the job but doesn't for whatever reason. Maybe it is a lack of confidence or imposter syndrome. They don't actually get that message out there, and their career can kind of languish as a result. 

Fleur Brown: That's so true. And it also reminds me, James, actually, of another point that was on my mind when I wrote that book. When it comes down to it, most good campaigns rest on an individual profile, whether that be a celebrity or if you're running a media campaign or a publicity strategy. Usually there's a key spokesperson. So understanding the mechanism around personal brand is really essential for a good campaign. You know, generally speaking, if you look at climate change, again, if you look at someone like Greta Thunberg, her personal brand is what's elevated that message. Greenpeace, that might be David Ritter in this landscape. And so that's critical skill to understand if you're running a campaign as well. 

James Lawrence: Yeah, it's interesting when we talk about personal brand. What are we talking about? Like what does building your personal brand mean for a marketer out there? 

Fleur Brown: It's really different for each player. If you're a CEO of a large corporation, then it usually means that you're the key media spokesperson. You go out and give a lot of the keynote addresses. You need to have a corporate profile on LinkedIn and attach your corporate messaging to that. You may or may not choose to have a Twitter profile. That's probably where it goes as far as it goes when it comes to your social imprint. But you certainly need to know how to give a keynote address, and you need to be managing your reputation. So there's a lot more caution involved in that. If I take somebody who's sitting within a marketing agency as an example or they're a marketer within a company, they're probably needing to amplify the company's messages as a first port of call. And by doing that, there's a win-win situation where they get to amplify their own brand as well. So LinkedIn would be a classic case for that. They'd also be looking at opportunities to speak quite often. 

Fleur Brown: Now, not everyone's comfortable speaking. So we can get into the nitty gritty of this later. But it comes down to the recipe that's right for you. You're doing a podcast. You seem very natural in that space. I would hazard a guess that if you were uncomfortable, you probably wouldn't keep going with that strategy. It's important to choose a vehicle for your personal brand that is a natural space for you to play. Don't force yourself to the table to a degree. Everyone needs to play in LinkedIn. If they're in a business role, it's like a business directory. But not everyone might want to run a podcast. Having a media profile often comes down to permission from the organisation that you're representing. There's many, many elements, some of which I haven't even touched on, that comprise the personal brand. Typically, you're going to pick about three. You can't do everything. We don't have the resources. You don't always have the permission. You don't have the skills. You might not have the comfort level, the time. Pick three. Attach yourself to those three things and do them well. 

James Lawrence: Yeah. Good advice. The benefits of having that strong brand in your industry or even within your own organisation, what are the typical things that you'd be if someone asks do I first of all have the confidence to do it? Do I believe in myself enough to do it? But what are those tangible benefits? 

Fleur Brown: If you're in an organisation, then your career building is absolutely going to benefit from this. So let's look at the wire first. You may be pursuing a career path within an entity that you're in. A lot of people become more valuable to an organisation if they've got an obvious profile. They may have a really strong LinkedIn follower base that will not go unnoticed by your employer. They will want to harness and use that profile quite often to good effect. I'd go so far as to say that they don't want to mess with you too much, either, because they know you've got a loud megaphone, so you know there was power in having a good platform if you use it well, that is a vehicle for being noticed outside of your organisation. 

Fleur Brown: Now, that may come in the form of sales opportunities or partnership opportunities for your current employer. And of course, it may get you noticed by your next employer. I think it's important there's a win-win strategy, a play for your current employer always. But of course, it goes towards signaling your next opportunity as well. It's really valuable in bridging to the place you want to be in. So an example of that would be somebody who is very passionate about sustainability. They might be operating within a slightly different space, but there's an opportunity to do a little bit of that content on their LinkedIn. It's relevant to their role. It's not the core purpose of their role, but they start to get noticed. For that, their company will notice them first, and then outsiders may notice them and opportunities will come from that either within the role that they're in. Outsiders may bring in a partnership opportunity, or it might even lead to a career jump. 

James Lawrence: Yeah, the win-win is so interesting. I was at a marketing conference in the States in April and was chatting to one of the speakers at the conference, and she's quite high profile in a particular part of digital marketing, and she's working for an agency. And I was kind of having a chat as to why don't you go out and start your own thing? And she said, yeah, like it's just a complete win-win. Like she travels the world. She speaks at conferences all the time. They're really happy for her to be out there not spruiking but kind of evangelising, I guess for that agency and for the subject matter she speaks to and she's allowed to construct the life that she likes to live in it. It is a complete win-win. If she wanted to move into a different role, being out there, being the face of a particular area of digital marketing, the offers are there right? And she could have sat back in her box and just done the subject matter she works within, but is invested heavily in her personal brand. 

Fleur Brown: That's a great case study, and I think I will bring up the subject of transparency here. And I think in my personal experience and also observation of others, being upfront about your intentions, don't just go and sort of crash through and surprise and hijack your current employer with your intended strategy, because you may find, firstly, that they try and rein you in the mouth, feel nervous and threatened by that. Whereas if you're in a positive negotiation with them, it could potentially lead to even more opportunities for you in that particular space. So if they see you developing your skills as a speaker, if they see you creating more good content in a particular area, it may well lead to opportunities. They'll also not be slow to recognise that it's going to make you more attractive as a headhunting opportunity, and they'll be keen potentially to secure your services. So everyone wins when you take that approach. If it goes sour, you've given your employer the opportunity to be honest about the strategy. 

James Lawrence: Yeah, we had Alicia Lykos from Red Wolf on the pod last year, and it was an episode all about career advice for young marketers. And one of the points that she made was that you want to become the go-to person on a particular subject or area within your business, and you'll have senior stakeholders might be your manager, people at your manager level, even people in different teams coming to you saying you're the person on this space and it's very, very similar, right. To kind of be the thought leader, to own content in a space, be the go-to person. Suddenly you're seen and you're regarded as being important in your business, or you could just sit there and hold that information internally. It's quite powerful. 

Fleur Brown: Yeah, absolutely. That touches on a signature topic, which I discuss in my book a lot. And it is the cornerstone of a lot of really good personal brand work. When you're in a corporation, it's important that signature topic has a relevance to what you're doing in your main job. For lots of reasons. You also need to be conscious that you just can't be all things to all people in the strategy. We all know as marketers, that the amount of investment that goes into getting a brand noticed at all. I'll give you a personal example. I'm in my current role. I'm back as an employee for an organisation. I do a lot of media work as a media spokesperson. On the other side of the coin, for many years, I was running an agency where we were getting people publicity. So I've noticed as more of a media spokesperson myself rather than in the background, it takes so much repetition to actually leave an imprint in any particular topic. You need to be talking about a conversation for some time. As marketers know, when it comes to branding anything or promoting anything, if you dilute the topic, you're going to confuse people. Let's be honest, a lot of people sort of know what you do, but not fully. So they're just going to go with the headline. So make sure that that headlines obvious and repetition is really important for that. Plus subject matter expertise. It's a recipe for confidence if you're going to give a keynote address. If you're going to be writing an opinion piece, if you're going to do multiple social posts, you want to be on firm ground when it comes to that topic. And that just takes time and experience to develop that confidence and that expertise. 

James Lawrence: Yeah. There was something from your course that stayed with me.  It was the point you made that you've just seen it time and time again in your career where someone kind of works, works, works on a particular topic and becomes known as something, and then they just move on because they've done it and they're bored with it. And I think it was kind of your point, basically the analogy being big bands, big acts around the world, they tour and they tour forever and they keep playing the greatest hits. And the minute they don't play the greatest hits, everyone goes crazy because that's what they're known for. And so own a space and just keep going at it. Doesn't matter how good you are, keep going at it. 

Fleur Brown: Use a bridging technique. If you follow that musician analogy, you're going to be at a concert. You expect the old hits and the new ones, so you have both. But just because you're sick and tired of talking about something, as you know, as marketers, that's the time that someone's recognising your logo as when you want to throw it in the bin. Yeah, evolving and bridging is really important. The other analogy I use, for those that watch the Shrek movies, is do the roar. So in the Shrek movie, Shrek the Ogre, he's famous for his roar. Everyone's begging for it. He refuses because he's sick and tired of being, you know, that ogre? Yeah, the crowd-pleaser. It's the party pleaser. And not only is it important in terms of being known for that thing and being an expert, but it's also what's going to bring the money. We all sort of have these moments of self-reflection, I guess, where we sort of think, oh, I'm tired of being known as that person, but it's sort of at that point that you're going to get paid enormously well, potentially to be that person and then bridge into the next thing. So don't just bin it, you know, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. One last example without naming names, but I had a client many years ago who was very famous as an author and in media on a particular research topic, and he was sick of being attached to that topic because he felt like he wanted to be in the boardrooms talking about something different. So he just threw that out the window and tried to attach himself to an innovation conversation instead. It went nowhere for about two years, and then he circled back to that original research topic and used it as a segue into innovation. And it worked. Bridging I would recommend highly.

James Lawrence: It makes a lot of sense. And from my own experience, what you mentioned around knowing a space well, giving you confidence is just massive. I think the best way to beat nerves around public speaking or presenting is to know the content. And if you genuinely know it, it's so different to getting up and delivering something that's a bit light on or you're not totally convinced of it. And so the idea that you can own six different speeches or presentations or 12, it’s very difficult. When you're really comfortable in the content yourself, it makes it makes it much easier to deliver.

Fleur Brown: So try and deliver it authentically. I talk in public speaking about the fact that you sort of go into semi-auto pilot. Like once you know you're familiar with the content, then you can switch on your X factor, your performance factor, because you're not trying to furiously remember the content or you're not feeling wobbly about any of that. If we look at celebrities or highly paid speakers, they usually have a keynote repertoire of maybe three, and they will just mix it up and tailor it to a bespoke environment. But they're not endlessly creating 15, 20 keynotes. They've got a core that they work off. I think it's really important from an authenticity point of view. 

James Lawrence: One of the headings in the book, Your Witness is Out, is your brand. Can we talk a little bit about that? 

Fleur Brown: Sure. Where that came from, ultimately was my weirdness. I grew up in a religious cult, and so identity issues are a big deal for me. I believe in freedom of identity, that people can be self-expressed. Of course, I didn't experience that in a cult. It was only when I owned that topic and that conversation in my own mind. You know why I was passionate about this? It led to some opportunities for me personally, and so I used a lot of that understanding to empower the message that I was trying to bring into how you build a personal brand out there within the business arena. Why did I care about that? Well, I think ultimately we spend so much of our time at work. What are we doing if we're not actually authentically communicating and building a platform for something that we care about? So finding that kind of X-Factor point in your own story and your own background that brings the topic to life for you is important. Again, it lends you confidence. It absolutely lends you authenticity, and it gives you that staying power to stay on something. And people feel that passion. They know that at the end of the day, we are pretty good at having a feel for authenticity, whether it's coming out of a digital environment or if it's in real life.

James Lawrence: Yeah, I remember when we did the course, you're very big on a lot of the stuff just doesn't matter. I think we have all these ideas in our head of what a great speaker looks like and how they work the stage and all these different things. And you would always just bring it back to just be yourself. Just be authentic to who you are, know your content, own it deeply, and then get out there and share it. And I think it just takes so much of the angst out.

Fleur Brown: I challenge anyone to go and think about the 5 to 10 best speakers that they can think of. Historically, Winston Churchill had a stutter. JFK had a weird voice. Julia Gillard's famous speech was delivered by someone who wasn't known for her famous orientation, you know, a place of passion. Another example from everyday life. There was an insurance salesperson in the course, and he was giving a fairly vanilla kind of presentation, and it was insurance. And so everyone's kind of going, please let this be over soon. And then he brought his personal story into the conversation, and it was authentic. What got him into insurance? His family's house burned down when he was a child and they weren't insured. So you can imagine how much people were leaning forward to listen when he used that example, how much credibility as a salesperson he suddenly had. And the trust, the trust level went right up. So that's just a very small example of dropping in your personal reason for doing something, and how it just helps you across all of those levels. 

James Lawrence: Yeah. And I guess it's human, isn't it? It's connection. It's storytelling. It’s how as humans, we actually connect with a topic or with a person. 

Fleur Brown: I mean, Brené Brown's all over this subject. Watching what she has to say on vulnerability is a real lesson in the connection between that and human engagement and getting your goals, man. 

James Lawrence: Yeah, her TED talk is a must-watch. If you haven't, you can pause the pod and put that on. I'd like to now jump into some of the more practical nuts and bolts. So I'm a marketer working in a big organisation or a marketer, and maybe I do have the opportunity to put some opinion pieces together. I put some thought leadership together. Maybe I might get to speak at an industry event. Maybe I don't want to speak. I'm not comfortable. But getting on to a podcast or even just getting good LinkedIn content going. Be great to talk just about a topic. The importance of a bio. What good headshots should look like because you've seen it, right? You've worked for so many years in media. You've seen what works digitally, what doesn't, just to help people. Because I think often even as digital marketers, you kind of look at stuff and you go, we should be presenting that better, or I'd like to do that a little bit differently. 

Fleur Brown: Notwithstanding that, I’m here to help you write a bio now. 

James Lawrence: True.

Fleur Brown: Why does it matter? Let’s use an everyday example. A lot of you are going to be invited at some point to talk to an industry group and you're asked for your bio, where do you take that from? Maybe you're not on the company website, you may or may not have a bio section on LinkedIn. What you're trying to do, and even if it was for a recruiter, is you're trying to thread together the themes through your background to take the hard work out of it for someone else. So this is something that increasingly people are simply going to read out for you before they introduce you. Do that thinking about what the sort of the theme is. Don't make it too long. Write one in third person, because then someone can literally read it out and they're using your own words. Look it's the building blocks of anything really. If you're going to speak in media, you need to be found in a credible way. We don't want to read down to paragraph five to discover that you won an award, or that you worked for a blue chip company, and you wrote a book. Use the information in a way you would as a marketer where you've got the best information upfront. People might not read down lower. 

James Lawrence: I always get given a bio of whoever the guest is on the pod and normally have to jump in and make heaps of changes to it. And your one was obviously taken from your LinkedIn. It was pretty good. 

Fleur Brown: Look on that point, the other thing that I've found personally useful is a bio is a great tool for bridging into your new reality. So it's a way of starting to creep things into the message that hints at what you want to do next. You're really passionate again about sustainability. You might put that in the front line of the bio, just overemphasise and highlight things that are about where you want to go. So always say a bio is a summary of your past with a hint of your future. So make sure that you signal where you want to head as well. 

James Lawrence: And it's true. I think we focused a lot of this on public speaking, and I'm not sure that's where all the audience will be. But remember you're saying it like you will at conferences, events etc. Generally bootstrapped last-minute people running the sessions are often volunteering and doing it. Things get sloppy, things get lazy, and it's got to you. LinkedIn just has to very quickly cut to the chase. Half the time, you're probably going to have to introduce yourself anyway, because you won't get a proper introduction and be prepared for all that stuff. 

Fleur Brown: Absolutely. So make sure that the summary section of your LinkedIn is filled out. There's a debate over whether that should be first or third person. It's useful if it's third person, because then someone doesn't have to rewrite it. People are cutting and pasting from that all the time. LinkedIn is a business directory. It is the place people look to see what you've done. If you're credible, yes, it might be a head-hunting ground, but it's not just that. It's the place where media go. It's the place that conference promoters go. That's almost more important than having you on a website. 

James Lawrence: Yeah. And then the importance of a good profile pic as well.

Fleur Brown: Yes, this can get funny. I got to the point where I just saw so many variations. As someone eating an ice cream on LinkedIn, there was someone in a helicopter with their child. There was someone who had-

James Lawrence: That might have almost been Garry, my business partner Garry, I think, I think his one was him and his son driving in a car eating something. 

Fleur Brown: Someone at the zoo with a monkey over the back in the background, which sends a particular message. There's people with their ex-partner's hand on their shoulder, but the rest of them cut out. There's the wedding shot. There's the Tinder shot. None of those are appropriate. It's pretty basic. You need good eye contact, clear head and shoulders, not too distanced. You don't have sunglasses on. You're making eye contact. All of the things that you'd use to establish rapport with a human being. 

James Lawrence: Yeah. And all this stuff matters. I think we're not thinking about it. We're so busy in our jobs doing what we're meant to be doing. The last thing you're thinking about is your LinkedIn profile every day, but it is how people judge you. It is your first impression. And yeah, if it's a journalist or an editor or you've sent something off to try to get a speaking opportunity, or if it is someone looking at you as a prospective employee or for that promotion, it's all the same things. We talk about why you need to make sure your website represents your business, your LinkedIn profile, if you have a website for yourself, or if you do have a section of your company website, the same impressions are being made.

Fleur Brown: People are going to go and cut and paste that photo onto a conference brochure because they're short of time as well. I've done it all the time. Everyone does it. So just be prepared. 

James Lawrence: And then in terms of content creation, what's your theory on that and approach? What are the hallmarks of great personal content to build your personal brand? 

Fleur Brown: Authenticity again, which means that it's something that you enjoy doing. So you might not love public speaking, but you might be good with a pen, and you can write or you might do both. Maybe you have an opportunity to have a media profile. Again, it comes down to choices. And I strongly recommend you have a look at what the DNA is of your profile currently like? What are you just doing already? What are you naturally? What have you done in the past? It's probably a really good clue as to what you're engaged in. It's probably where your natural audience is going to be. I took a phone call yesterday from someone who wanted to build their brand from scratch to launch a book, and they had no existing social media imprint. And I'm like, well, you know, see you in two years because it's going to take ages to authentically build that imprint for you in a way that's going to work for your audience. So let's look at something else as a strategy. You've got great speaking opportunities. Let's lean into that. What are you doing currently? What have you done in the past? That's a good clue. Have a look at that. Where do you feel most comfortable and most confident? And then amplify that channel. 

Fleur Brown: So content will reflect that. If you're a good writer, if you have opportunities to write for an industry publication, you might put yourself up to write two opinion pieces a year. Run it past your company. They'll probably love it because it gets them some cross-promotion. You can then amplify that on your social networks. If you're a reasonable public speaker and you're quite happy with that, again, set yourself a modest target. Maybe you're being invited to speak currently. Maybe you're not. When you're first starting, you might just want to do a couple of appearances a year. Again, amplify that before the event, during the event, and after the event on social. So I call it; create once, published often. That's not my turn of phrase, and I can't remember who I need to credit for that, building that content and then amplifying it multiple times. Again, going back to that principle, we talked about where people aren't going to get it the first time, or the second time or the third time. So you can repeat some of that content. 

James Lawrence: I think the point around setting a modest target is so good. If you are a marketer and you want to start building that brand, think of setting that target of what's a space that I know well? Whether it's an industry or a subject matter area. Is it an industry mag that can try to get published in terms of the actual vertical I'm working within, or am I trying to hit up an Adnews / B&T / Marketing Mag in terms of the actual industry press in our space? Because a lot of those publications, not those specifically, but generally industry publications, all news are crying out for good quality content on topics where subject matter experts are willing to give it. 

Fleur Brown: Absolutely. And with emphasis on subject matter expertise, making sure you're not stepping on someone's toes within your organisation. Again, transparency is important. Opinion pieces are great because you can get them signed off internally. Media can be fantastic. But look, it's a rocky road for beginners. You need to have media training. You may say things that the company doesn't like and then they pull you back. You need to be on a particular path to go with media if it's not your own company or your own agency. Yeah. So opinion pieces are a great way to start that media journey. 

James Lawrence: Yeah. That's it. And suddenly you've gone from someone in your organisation who's well regarded in a particular area. So you've got a great LinkedIn profile, a good photo, a built out profile, and suddenly you've been written up or you've appeared in or you featured in industry publication, or the ABC which carry a huge amount of credibility. 

Fleur Brown: And you'd know from the search space that helps your third party credibility know you need to have a good online footprint, so unlike this woman I spoke to yesterday, when you go searching for her, you find her in all the right places rather than sort of having to start from scratch. So I used to say this to people in the startup world when they're pitching for funding, a lot of them are renegades and sort of like, I don't need to have this kind of profile. But at the end of the day, if an investor can't look you up and find you, then you're a risk. You don't have that established online footprint with third-party credibility of a media presence or the legitimacy of a LinkedIn profile with some history about where you've come from and a legitimate network where they can see who you know in common. All of that's important for credibility and trust building. 

James Lawrence: What advice to get speaking gigs and conferences, events, industry catch-ups etc? What are the ways that you can approach that or recommendations you'd have?

Fleur Brown: I sort of feel like I'm kind of repeating basic principles here, but they all are very similar. It comes back to that point of expertise, that signature topic, the go-to position, trying to use your current role as a bridge, looking again immediately around you. I always say to people, if they want to be at a media or speak at an event, what do you naturally want to attend? So if you don't go, why would you be pitching yourself into the Mumbrella 360 event? You want to be understanding that environment and have absorbed it before you put yourself forward. It's kind of arrogant to do that. So look at what you've naturally attended, where you've got a bit of rapport going, you feel you understand that environment. You might have some relationships established within that entity, or you get opportunities that are coming to you. Go and speak to your in-house PR people or HR people. If you have a company that has that operation and just let them know that you're interested in this kind of opportunity, they'll run it through your in-house approval processes. They may have a whole lot of requests, and the CEO may not be able to keep up, and they're happy to have people kind of speak in that, in that area. 

Fleur Brown: It's a sort of a synthesis of where the opportunities sit, what your understanding is of that environment and that channel, and then how you bring your expertise into that conversation. Again, don't be a purist. Do the roar, go and speak about your core expertise and then have a teaser of where you want to go. Say you want to talk about digital marketing, but you've got a passion for sustainability. I keep coming back to that just as a reference point. Talk about how sustainability is creating deeper engagement or social impact is important for marketing engagement with Gen Z. Your presentation might be representing your current entity, but you're giving a glimpse into where your passion point is. So don't be too clinical about well, I have to have this whole brave new world of content start somewhere, and just evolve so people can see the choreographic moves that you're making towards where you want to go.

James Lawrence: You definitely find that those opportunities start to open up themselves once you get out there and start doing. 

Fleur Brown: Do you know, I used to say sort of 6 to 12 months. I think there's a life cycle to image building. The intense work is in the first 12 months. And then you should find that the inbound opportunities start coming to you. It's time to establish that presence, the go-to position, build your audience, and build credibility. And then you'll find that effort starts to pay off. And then it replicates and replicates. So in personal branding, the more you're in media the more media want you. The more you have established a go-to position, the more people will come at you with conference and speaking opportunities. The only exception to that would be the more you post on social media may actually alienate your audience. So just be an appropriate cadence. 

James Lawrence: But we find that with the pod, like when we kicked it off, it was kind of very much us going out to our network and people we dealt with previously. And then we still do that a lot, but it's still changing right, where we get inquiries now where people want to come on to it and it's like, yeah, maybe not a great fit or that's a good fit, but it's kind of the dynamic changes, right? 

Fleur Brown: Yeah. Absolutely. And also it demonstrates holding your nerve with a topic. As long as it's part of your expertise, it's relevant to your current role. Hold your nerve a little bit because the opportunities will eventually come. It's at that moment again, going back to the logo example that the executives might be saying, oh, we're so bored with this logo, let's throw it out. And that's when your target audience is starting to go, oh, I know that logo. Same with our topic, credibility, or opportunities. People are just starting to notice us as being attached to that. And then we might go, oh, I give up. You know, I'm just going to switch strategies. 

James Lawrence: Yeah. Just when I was about to go, and I don't want this to be a negative movement of the conversation but rather like address it, then how do we move it into the positive, but what are the things that are holding people back? Like what are you stopping? Because I see it in our industry and wider often the person that is out there with the big brand and has the opinion pieces and whatever else, isn't the person necessarily with the best ideas, it's just the person that is most probably confident in their own ability to talk. What are those things that hold back people who really should be out there talking, because they've got great stuff to say and they just don't have that whatever it might be?

Fleur Brown: Confidence is currency and it kind of feeds itself, I think, with the megaphone effect in terms of the people that saturate social media and other opportunities, some of them have earned the right to do that, and they might just be a little too boring with their content now, or a little too removed from reality and the trenches. But quite often you have to go back to what's at feeding. So you're not just out there building a personal brand for kicks. It's not to fulfill your 13-year-old fantasy of fame, it's for a reason. So what are you trying to generate? Are you trying to generate a career opportunity? Are you trying to generate paid opportunities for your employer? Are you trying to generate a book offer? You know, what is it? It might be a few things, but going back to serving that, and is the strategy serving you when it comes to how to present yourself, passion is going to put you in that position. 

Fleur Brown: So if you're really passionate about writing a book one day, that might be the thing that keeps you holding your nerve there on the speaking circuit, or continuing to work late hours to produce those written content pieces for your LinkedIn profile. Women and minority groups in particular, lack confidence often, or just sort of fall prey to more of them. Existing predictable system. I think that's slowly changing. So for women in particular, I'd say just supersize your confidence. Have your friend write your bio for you because they're going to see you in a completely different way. You can usually take a woman's confidence in her bio and double it. But again, if you're talking about something you're passionate about, I mean, I've seen, particularly in the startup world, so many people just supersize their profile because they are so determined to get out there and make a difference in this particular area. It usually comes back to a personal problem, an example; a woman who is building a platform for women with endometriosis, she's personally suffered. Her family has suffered from it. She's highly motivated. She is extremely shy. And that doesn't stop her for a minute because she sees that end goal. 

James Lawrence: I definitely noticed in my career that what you said is true. You do find that often women just don't have the confidence to speak about themselves in the same way that a lot of men will. And we've got to flip that. 

Fleur Brown: When it comes to looking for career opportunities, it is really important who hires you. All of my breaks as a woman many years back now came from people who were going out of their way to create a pathway for young women. And I can tell you, there's five of them. I could name them, including the person I'm currently working for, still ordinary on that level. And so it does make a difference. You shouldn't have to battle every day. And if you are, I would be questioning your environment and looking for another opportunity. 

James Lawrence: I think in terms of that kind of lack of confidence, something that helped me in my career as it relates to actually speaking on topics was when you're speaking and writing content or doing a pod or whatever it might be, don't come at it thinking or holding yourself to this kind of level of, I'm an absolute expert in this space, and I know more than every person in the room. I think I can remember who it was that said, that's not what you're doing. All you're doing is sharing your experience on a particular topic, and it really just changed from there. This is my experiences that I've seen, and there'll be people in the room who might know more about SEO or Google ads or whatever it might be. For me, I'm not pretending that I know everything. It's simply just what I've seen and what I've experienced in my career to date. I think it changed that perspective as well. 

Fleur Brown: Yeah, I think that's a beautiful place to come from. And in friendships, you know, the people we value the most, the people that listen, and we consider them the wise souls in our circle, it's very similar, in corporate circles as well. I remember starting my career; my first keynote was sort of like a 50-minute speech from a lectern to 500 people, and they didn't say a word. There was no Q&A, there was no social media. You just had the megaphone that doesn't exist anymore. It's very much a two-way street. When it comes to any form of communication. 

James Lawrence: I think that's very true. So it's been awesome having you on the podcast. If anyone is listening and are interested in the topic or wants to dig deeper into it, definitely grab a copy of The Business of Being You, which is Fleur’s book. It's available on Amazon and Fleur, always end the pod, every guest has to answer the question of what's the best piece of career advice that you'd give to an Australian marketer? 

Fleur Brown: Look, confidence is currency. I believe I coined that phrase, but you know, you can prove me wrong now. And I don't mean this in a way where you're obnoxiously confident, I just mean that there comes a time where you just have to step forward and own who you are, what you know and be bold enough to get out into the arena with that. And the rewards will come from that, as long as it's coupled with authenticity and passion. You look back on the experience, y ou may be bruised and battle-scarred occasionally, but most of the time I think you're going to find that that leads to much greater career satisfaction and great opportunity. 

James Lawrence: Nice one. So great advice and it's a great way to finish the pod. Thanks for coming on.