Career Advice from 2022 Australian CMO of the Year

James Lawrence: I'm here today with a very special guest, the 2022 Australian Marketing Institute CMO of the year, Aimee Engelman. Aimee, welcome to the Pod. 

Aimee Engelmann: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me, James.

James Lawrence: I'm looking forward to this one. So Aimee has done so much in her career. She's had a stellar in-house marketing career here in Australia. She's worked in CMO and chief revenue officer roles in a range of organisations. She's also founded, scaled and successfully exited really successful businesses. She's hired and worked with hundreds of marketers in her career. She's a graduate of the Australian Institute of Company Directors, a fellow of the Australian Marketing Institute, and a certified practicing marketer. I just thought when it comes to career advice and what good marketers do and things we haven't done well, I've thought of you, Aimee. So thanks for joining us and let's rip in. 

Aimee Engelmann: Great. Cool. 

James Lawrence: So thought just the logical place to start would be just your first few roles in the industry way back when. 

Aimee Engelmann: Yeah. Great question. So I started my early career in customer service and sales, which I think is an excellent platform for marketers. Because you're in front of the general public, you're not in sales roles, you're learning how to communicate with lots of different types of people. A few jobs in retail and service. And then into my first marketing role as a blended sales marketing role, actually in Canada, when I took some time in my early 20s and was living in a gorgeous little town called Banff and worked in the sales and marketing department in a ski resort there. And that was my first marketing, really core marketing role, marketing assistant type role, really fun. I got to travel with them as well and did some trade shows in America and back in New Zealand when came back to Australia. So that was fantastic. The second sort of big role where I started to focus on marketing in my core career, went into Telstra as a graduate in my mid-20s, so went into the grad program a little bit late because didn't come straight out of uni. Took six years to do my undergrad so a little while to finish that. And Telstra was a great landing because they had a developed grad program. When you went in they take you through different departments, and then I ended up staying with them for five years in various marketing roles. 

James Lawrence: Were there other roles you were looking at, at the time, or was Telstra kind clearly by a long way, the best offer on the table? 

Aimee Engelmann: Yeah, it was the best offer. Before I went to them I was actually with Cadbury Schweppes as a rep. So I thought I might go into FMCG. And when you go into marketing or brand or any of those sorts of roles, it's compulsory to, or not compulsory at the time, but how you got into the marketing department was doing a year on the road repping. So I was a soft drink rep on the Gold Coast and was slinging soft drink and talking to kebab shops about buying that extra box of Pepsi. And it was not the most glamorous role. And then at the same time, I was trying to get that leg up back into a grad program, a more structured grad program. And then when Telstra came up, I was like, all right, is it Telstra or is it FMCG? And do I want to keep being on the road for whatever time and an undefined amount of time before I got actually into the office, into a marketing assistant type job? And so that was the pivotal decision. But in that early part, had to move to Toowoomba, which was highly unappealing in my mid-twenties to move from Gold Coast to relocate to Toowoomba with Telstra for the first part of my grad program. So I went to the country but it ended up being a good decision. 

James Lawrence: As these things often end up being. I think it's really interesting, the observation just around working in customer service and even then at Schweppes. Forcing their future marketers out there to deal with customers. I think that's a lesson for us all the time in marketing, isn't it? Good marketing is about truly understanding the market and the customers and about them, not about us. Right? 

Aimee Engelmann: Yeah. And often it's so hard. The more you progress with your career, it's harder and harder to get close to the customer, which is why there's a big market research industry. And a lot of the tools that we have now help us with that. But it is really hard. The further that you go in your career, get boxed in the office, you have to make that time. All right, I'm going to go out with the Salesforce. So I'm going to get this piece of research done or make sure to go to that event or whatever that is to get back in front. 

James Lawrence: What advice would you have to young marketers in terms of that first role or those first few roles, like looking back on your career and what you've achieved, and you've also worked with lots of really awesome marketers in your time, right? What are those key traits of good first roles? 

Aimee Engelmann: The first thing I would say is don't stress out too much and don't rush and worry about what your first couple of roles are. I've felt that in my 20s I was like, oh, I have to have this perfect pathway post-uni to get into marketing. Just letting go of that, is the first piece of advice I would have. The second is, if you can follow your passion, so find something that you're interested in, maybe even just a part of a company that you find interesting, because passion then fuels your education and your love of what you do and that it doesn't become a love, it's a passion. I would also say really early in my career, I wish I got closer to the numbers earlier. So numbers, not just on like effectiveness of the campaign and conversion rates and those sorts of things. Back in the day, it was things like doing a lot of outbound telemarketing, direct marketing before digital marketing is showing my age there, but you're getting close to the numbers and really understanding the numbers, because I think one of the challenges in any career, particularly in marketing, you have to be able to prove what success looks like. Right? 

Aimee Engelmann: And so as you're dealing with senior stakeholders and if you want to continue to progress and be the best that you can, you have to show proof. And that proof is commercial proof. Understanding attribution, understanding ROI, and being able to get on top of virtual discussions versus, maybe the brand discussion or the impression discussion and understanding ROI and attribution. But the numbers in the context of that wider commercial discussion that's happening at that next couple of levels up, because you can imagine if you come out with some of those insights that are backed by data, you might be quite junior, people are going, well, so-and-so understands what's going on. They've got high business acumen. And the other one is we've touched on is how do you get close to the customer? So how do you get those insights about what's landing and what's not? To do a secondment in sales for a period of time? Or, hey, I'm in a comms role now. Want to go and work in product? Can I go and work in product for six months? And just suggesting that within the organisation that you're in. Depending on the size that may not always be that easy. But just thinking about how can you widen in your early part of your career that knowledge and not get to single focused? For example, in my early career, I had the opportunity to work in products with the product manager for some time, learning about pricing and pricing models. 

James Lawrence: At that role in Telstra?

Aimee Engelmann: Yeah. So you then understand, well, how do the finance stakeholders think about watching this product and what's important to them and what's their lens? And moving between those different departments or functions. I think if you can do that in your early career is super, super important.

James Lawrence: I think probably even a practical takeaway, if listeners are in smaller organisations still trying to take practical steps to achieve those things, if it's not a team for a day, a month, a week or whatever it might be, but it's still trying to get exposed to things that are a bit broader than just the marketing function. 

Aimee Engelmann: Even finance. If there's a finance stakeholder saying, hey, look, you're probably doing a monthly review on finance. Can I tag along? I'd love to learn the way that you assess how the business is performing. Just getting exposure to that any which way you can. 

James Lawrence: The senior marketers that I've come across over the years, the ones that seem to progress most and have the respect of the wider organisation, are those that can elevate the conversation to talk numbers and market, not just talk about metrics and CPCs and ROAS and those types of things. You need to understand both, but you will get pigeonholed and not taken that seriously. If you can't expand that conversation up and into the conversations more broadly around the business. 

Aimee Engelmann: I agree.

James Lawrence: So that role at Telstra, what else did you get exposed to at it? Like you're there for five years was it?

Aimee Engelmann: Yeah lots of things. So like competitive intelligence. Doing research on competitors and Intel pricing business planning on the sales structures. So at the time, they're now called skills. You know those phone roles like running smaller sales teams as a blend to a marketing role. So more like a commercial manager, legal and compliance. So understanding how marketing has to blend and take into consideration how you make claims and how you talk about pricing/branding. So working within a brand architecture that is both national and it can be product and segment-orientated as well. Having the brand conversations around the master brand and then how we might want to utilise it in a particular area for product. So that was amazing. And then the absolute craziness of launching new products. So in Telstra, a DSL came out at the time and we were migrating people from dial-up to a DSL. Working with the agency, managing the marketing effort, particularly the marketing communications effort around product launches. It was good times, very busy, and stressful at points, but just really helped round out that baseline understanding so that I was fortunate enough when I left that to take more a junior marketing director role in a smaller company because I had that breadth. So yeah, when I left I could roll all of that experience up into taking more ownership for a marketing function in its entirety. 

James Lawrence: As you were talking, it's exactly what I was thinking. It's such a good breeding ground. In terms of just getting exposed to all of those different individual components I think a lot of young marketers might sit pretty siloed in 1 or 2 of those.

Aimee Engelmann: Yeah. Being able to stick from a large to a small organisation, then you have that whole step change as well. It gives you the ability to potentially apply for those roles where you have a bit more autonomy and a bit more responsibility, but then different challenges as you move from big to small. 

James Lawrence: Because I was curious to chat with you about how you picked your roles and whether they have all been very organised and structured? And I want to work in a big organisation. I want to work small. And I've done some B2C stuff, and now I want to do B2B. I'd like to hear your story and then your experience for listeners that might have only been exposed to one particular type of marketing, also having that well-rounded career?

Aimee Engelmann: So the first part; was some of it structured and deliberate? Yes, some of it was, but some of it was out of the blue like I was made redundant in a marketing role that wasn’t by design. 

James Lawrence: Yeah.

Aimee Engelmann: At 29 I was like, oh my God, of course, you take that sort of stuff so personally. But the company was not in a great financial position. They had to make the hard decision to let some staff go. And I'd only been there eight months. And I was like, oh my God, this is going to be disastrous. I had a mortgage at the time. I'd just moved into an apartment. Oh my God, the sky is falling. And that was a good opportunity to grab a contract roll and then think about what to do next. So no, not all of it was by design, but was a little bit deliberate in shifting industries. And that's one of the things that I enjoyed. So I enjoyed understanding the challenge of the market with customers and then lifting that knowledge and putting that into a different market or a different segment. The thing that I've also learned is I do like change. So for me, I couldn't sit in a role for more than maybe a year and a half to two years. And then I'd be looking around for where else could I go across, or did I need to jump to another industry or take another challenge or go start a business or whatever? So I think the other thing that I learned early in my career is the power of networks. When I did have that situation where I was made redundant, I could pick up the phone and call some of my former employers and say, hey this has happened. Does anyone have anything that can just tie me over until I work out what my next step is? So that was super important and hopefully answers that question about was it deliberate or not?

James Lawrence: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think a lot of the time it is both those things, isn't it? It's always hard to know when to move and what that next step might be. Change is hard, but often you need that for growth. To round yourself out in terms of networking. Has that been a big part of your career to date and if so, how have you done it? 

Aimee Engelmann: Yeah, I think it has. And I'm not super great at it. I don't make a huge effort to reach out to people that I haven't spoken to for years. LinkedIn helps with that networking. But I think one of the things that I have tried to develop over my career is that in any job I've gone into, I've always thought about not just how to enter that role and my effort and energy in there, but also the way you leave is exceptionally important. So I'm one of those people when I've left a role or handed something over, even when exited my business and I was in transition, just the level of documentation and effort to hand over because people remember that. They don't remember the Aimee who was hired who came in and did that great job. It's that last couple of weeks of, how were you in that handover and how did you leave? And that's what stays with them. So if you ever have to call them again or you might need their help or their advice, that's what they remember and then think. The other thing is, just because I believe a little bit in karma, is when people have come to me over the years for help on things, I've just always been able to try and balance what I've got going on in my life to give them a hand with something. So over the years, there's been young marketers who I've come across that I've just kept in contact with and have been in a pickle, or needed some career advice, or just being able to give them a little bit of time because you have to live in council. 

Aimee Engelmann: And then obviously industry like the Australian Marketing Institute, I joined because in that first role in Telstra, one of my managers had the certificate there of the certified practising marketer and was like, wow, what's that? And she explained to me that it's an industry body and there's different training that's available. And it's like the certification for marketers. And I jumped on, I was like, oh, that's really interesting. So that became an opportunity, particularly in my younger career, to go to events. I didn't have to pay it out of pocket. It was funded by the company I was working for at the time, just to keep involved in talking to people in the industry, being a part of that. So that organisation, I think, has been key in keeping the network alive and agencies as well. I've worked with amazing people like yourself, but over the years I've worked with amazing leaders in agencies and other people working in agencies. They do move around from time to time to staff and agencies and yeah, keeping in contact with them and keeping an eye on who's who and where they're moving to.

James Lawrence: They're really good practical bits of advice. And definitely, I think as an employer, the bit about how you leave your job just resonated so strongly. And I think it goes without saying that you want to leave a job well, and that you don't put your feet up from the minute you give notice. But going that extra mile and if you get stuck after I leave, feel free to give me a call. And here are the handover notes. And it makes such a difference. And I definitely can think of past employees who I think it even strengthened that relationship. Like moving forward you morphed from being that employer, employee or colleague to friend much easier. And all these things seem to come around like the Australian marketing community just isn't massive. You should do it for the right reason anyway. But it's such a good insight. Have you leaned on mentors much in your career? 

Aimee Engelmann: I have, I would probably say my earliest mentor was actually my sister, so she's seven years older than me. She's had a brilliant career, started in marketing and then went through into many roles, and is now a CEO of an ASX listed company. And yeah, she's been she's been my my closest mentor. Obviously my boss, I can still remember some of the things that my, my first bosses in Telstra said to me on a day-to-day basis about thinking about the customer or just sharing insights. So yes. Absolutely. Think just informally. Of course, bosses have to be mentors. That's been a big part of my career. When I was running businesses, I also joined the actual formal mentoring structure. So I committed for probably six years, going to six weekly powwows with other business owners that mentor each other and is in a structured sense. That's called the Entrepreneur's Organisation. So I invested heavily in that. 

Aimee Engelmann: And in my learning, I did a heap of events which I went to they call them universities, which are learning events. Also usually overseas in a spectacular place where you want to go and visit, like Athens and Canada, and did a few trips like that, which were a mix of travel and education. So that was a really big part. Now I'm still an active member, obviously, the Australian Marketing Institute, my boss at the moment. So my CEO whom I report to is a fantastic mentor. It's one of the things that I look for if I'm going to work for someone, like what's their style? And when we first met and we had lunch and we were talking about like what drives each other. And he was really passionate about helping others and mentoring others. He's in that stage of his career where that's a big focus for him, which is brilliant. 

Aimee Engelmann: I've done paid coaching just after I got married. I went through this period of motivation and I just didn't understand why, and it was when I'd just started my marketing agency and everything on paper was looking great. I had client work coming in every day and it's profitable. And I just really struggled with my motivation. I didn't know why, so I actually had a paid life coach, not so much a business coach, but more working on mindset and trying to pull apart why my motivation was lacking and what was happening there when everything looked amazing on the outside. Probably did paid coaching for almost the entire journey of that business, which was six years. A really big mix of formal mentoring, informal mentoring, investing in my own coaching, investing in my education. And then, as I said, my sister, who's still the person when we catch up, we talk about what's happening in our work and get advice from her on how to handle tricky things. So a whole lot of different blended…

James Lawrence: And you’re so open to it. Like you say over the year, you've achieved so much right in your career, but still open to learning and growth and getting experience from other people. And I think it's such a valuable lesson for all of us, regardless of whether we're a grad looking for that first role or whether you're moving through, you can just always learn from people. And I think it's interesting what you said before about how you've always been very open to people reaching out to you. And I think that's my experience with mentoring mentees, right? All you have to do is ask. Most people will be generous with their time and experience. If you say, hey, I've been looking at you from afar, or you've built this great career, would you be open to meeting with me once a month or once every second month, and just helping me through my career? Very rarely do you get shut down on that stuff, right? 

Aimee Engelmann: I agree. I fast for ten years and think about like, what would I actually like to be doing when I finish roles that start with, that's my ultimate goal, is to to be able to form some sort of earning potential. But it's very much on mentoring and I'm not sure where that will end up yet, because I've got a few years to formulate what that looks like. But yeah, but when I fast forward ten years of where I want to be, that's where I'd like to dedicate the majority of my time.

James Lawrence: You’re currently in roles, but prior to that, in between Telstra and whatever else, you'd made the decision to jump into your own businesses. So I'll just be curious as to that journey. And I think what you learned from the other side, I guess just being on the outside looking in. 

Aimee Engelmann: Firstly, what I think about that whole experience of running a business is to not be afraid to give it a crack. Timing is important. When you're at that time, we can go, yep, I'm going to take this risk because it is a risk. But I think the first thing is never hesitating. If you feel like you've got a passion or an interest in going down that path, it's definitely harder work than being an employee. But it has a different lens. And I think I became a much better marketer after running a business. When you're running a business, you're forced to understand how all of the pieces connect together. And in marketing, you don't often have that ability to really understand finance, like how do you rate a panel on a balance sheet, you don't know. Maybe the most senior person has got a budget that they have to work to. Often marketers themselves, even senior marketers don't know the difference between reading a balance sheet and a paid one. Or could you take a balance sheet and a panel and work out the cash flow for the upcoming six months? That's something that think only business owners work out how to do. 

Aimee Engelmann: And so I think my business acumen changed as a result. And I think the other thing is when you run a business, you’re typically customer-facing for not always the good stuff, but the tricky stuff you're the person who's ultimately responsible for solving bigger relationship issues that get escalated to you, and you have a team doing the day to day. You're the person who has to either break into a new relationship or fix relationship. And so I think the learnings there is, just get to hone your communication skills and your observation of how to navigate those situations, because you just get so much practice under pressure and you get to really understand, how is this customer thinking you're feeling because it's your money and it's your effort that then results in that relationship continuing or not. You have to hone those skills. Then when I've returned to a corporate career, I've just found that when I am in those more tricky situations with people, in leadership or with my peers, I'm not particularly stressed about it. I don't worry about it. I can just flow through it like, oh yeah, I've been here before, sort of thing. So hope that makes sense. 

James Lawrence: I think as a business owner is such a different dynamic. And as you're talking, I was actually thinking it must have helped you come back into corporate life just in terms of having that full 360 view for that period of your life now coming in. And I'm sure you can better empathise with senior stakeholders and your CEO and whoever it might be, just because you've had that experience yourself.

Aimee Engelmann: And when you come full circle, you also sleep a lot better at night. 

James Lawrence: If there's any businesses out there looking for a middling marketer to join the ranks, I'll have to brush up on my CV. I was curious, and it probably doesn't just relate to when you had your own business, but you've hired so many marketers over the years, right? Both, I guess, as part of your own businesses. But then being marketing manager and CMO, what do you look for? I’d just be curious, what do you look for on paper, and then what do you look for through that interview process? 

Aimee Engelmann: I'll tell you one thing I'm really brutal about on paper, which is as current as the last couple of months when I've been reviewing resumes, if I don't see marketers and this is not like an entry-level like assistant, but anyone has been in for 1 or 2 years. If I don't see KPIs, if I don't see numbers on the resume, I very rarely progress it forward because I can't see proof. So I also look for proof like projects that I've said like I was responsible for this project and this was the outcome. And even if it's for more junior marketers, it might be some outcomes that are more comms-orientated. And that's okay. As long as I said it's this content went from here to here, or optimised this landing page and went from here to here, I'm like, great. I can see that focus on how they have connected what they're doing with the result, and there's core numbers in there. 

Aimee Engelmann: And then more senior, you would be surprised as how many senior resumes that I've looked at that don't have any sort of commercial reflection on the numbers and I'm pretty brutal. I don't even pass them through the first stage. Another thing is the cover letter. As always, ask someone to write a cover letter in a job ad and I say I touch on a couple of things of what we're looking for. And then I say please respond with a cover letter addressing a couple of the key points of how you add value. And if I get a standard cover letter back that  hasn’t addressed anything in what I've written, I don't progress them. So like just simple things like that help you understand, okay, someone actually taking the time, have they read this? Have they thought about it? Have they taken the time to write back that's tailored to the early things? I’m super brutal on it.

James Lawrence: What about once you get through to the interview face-to-face or via Zoom?

Aimee Engelmann: Yeah. So I am looking for an understanding of their own strengths and weaknesses. A great question to ask is; tell me about your zone and marketing. There's lots of things that you could be good at. What do you love about it? Ask them about a project that they love, or I'd ask them about something that they're really proud of because I want to work out where they fit. Marketers can be so many different things. So I want to understand, maybe they're talking about the brand and connection to some research that they did and, blah, blah, blah. And I'll be like, wow, they enjoy seeing this part of marketing. That's what they love. So I'm trying to connect what my needs are at the time with what they love. I try and find that person where I can really connect what I'm looking for in the team based on other characteristics of the team, and then try and slot them in. So if they're all around, when I ask these questions, I'm looking for the things that talk about a number of things that were super thought about. If they're just I'm hiring for something more focused. I want to hear that they deeply love that part of what I'm looking for. I try and don't necessarily grill them too much on their background and experience. I really want to get from them their understanding of what they love. So that I can match that with exactly what I need in the team.

James Lawrence: And the candidate would have an idea, presumably what the role is? 

Aimee Engelmann: Yeah, that's another good segway is that always take the discipline to create a full position description and list exactly what's expected in the role, including the time that they're likely to spend on things. And best practice is to present that as part of the interview process, above and beyond a job ad, that says this of the job. And this is across all hiring, not just marketing. What are the activities that you're going to conduct? What's the time I expect you to spend on each of these activities? So it might say something like; research, is that 90% of the time I spend or is that 10% of the time? Again, working with some great mentors in HR and in recruitment, my early career, I've understood how important that expectation discussion in the beginning is to make sure that the person and therefore their success in the role pulls through. So yeah, I do spend a lot of time in that early discussion on expectations and being super clear, putting it down and writing and presenting all of that. 

James Lawrence: It's just so important, isn't it, for both parties? There's just no point jumping into a role without truly understanding it. And there's also no point bringing your candidate in onboarding them, then you haven't told them that three days a week they're going to be doing something which is just not at all what they're good at or what they’re interested in.

Aimee Engelmann: This sounds probably pretty obvious, but passion for people who have shown, particularly as they go through their career, they have shown that they can move between different products or industries. So I can see that they can use their skills and move or pivot the key things I'll look at. 

James Lawrence: I hate the term managing up, but what advice would you have for marketers working in organisations around how to play the game, but do it in the right way, like get that visibility in the organisation? Actually generate the accolades for the work you are doing? How do you manage with your manager? How do you manage with people above and adjacent? 

Aimee Engelmann: I could talk about this for hours though. I love this topic, so I'll touch on a couple of things though. One thing I always think of myself when I'm working with stakeholders, and particularly who I report to, is particularly at the top, it's lonely, right? It's lonely at the top. And what you find is that people are always bringing you problems. So they come to you to bring you a problem that they need you to solve. And what I try and be to my CEO, is I try to be the Department of Good News. So I always want to deliver some good news. And it's usually I'll bring him some data to say, hey I've been working on this initiative. I just wanted to show you some early indicators. This is what's happening. Be a bit of that department of good news, but backed up by data lead indicators. So being able to constantly show how something's improving. So you might be chasing revenue. What's the lead indicator to revenue? It's leads or it's conversions or whatever that might be. So getting across all your lead indicators and being smart in when you choose to share those and how often you choose to share those. 

Aimee Engelmann: Now, there will always be problems. So you can't always be the Department of Good News. Sometimes you get to be the Department of Bad news. Or another mentor of mine is sometimes, you've got to put the turd on the table, and when you put the turd on the table, that's okay. You need to do it. Communicate early and often. If things are not going right, but try and go with options for solutions. So to never take a problem to your one up or even sideways without maybe some options that you've reflected on. And if you can actually think about what those options might be and present them in a really smart way, because I know that you must feel this too, because in a business you just want the solutions. You don't want the problems. So I think that's really important. 

Aimee Engelmann: And then just face time. Like sometimes people get busy. So you need to also be quite forthcoming in saying, look, we need to catch up for a one on one. So you don't have regular one on ones. But when you have those one on ones you need to work out, what are you going to say? So just talk about the activity. Oh, I did this, I did this, and I did this. And it is. Yeah. Like people are too busy to hear that. Bring the numbers to me. Here's the lead indicators on the projects I'm working on. This is going well. And this is because I'm saying this data hasn't moved yet. That's for this reason. But I'm onto it because I'm doing this. This is for this. Prepare an agenda.Share the data or bring it to to your one up when you're talking to them. Don't talk the whole meeting. If you have half an hour, get through what you need to get through in about ten minutes and then say I've covered that. Is that what you need from me for this type of conversation? Was that information that you'd like to see? Yep. Great. And then have 20 minutes to discuss whatever they want to discuss. What else have you got on your list? Really thinking about using your boss's time or your peers time really effectively, making sure that you get face time with them. So there are no surprises and they're up to date on your projects. 

Aimee Engelmann: Be exceptionally data driven and preparing the data in advance and knowing your numbers. Don't talk about activities, the details, I want to hear them because maybe you have a document they can self-serve. And then trying to be the Department of Good news. And if you have to put the turd on a table, give options for solutions. The best performing staff that I've had over the years would naturally do with a friend who has quite a big business, and that's one of his thing, is I'm not paying you to tell me about problems. I'm telling you to bring me solutions. And as a manager, as an employer, just having staff that are proactive because it shows that they're actually putting themselves in your shoes, or they're trying to solve the business problems. And probably comes a little bit back to your point earlier on around great marketers are understanding the numbers up here. They're not just dealing with marketing metrics. I think it is about that where are we heading as a business as opposed to what I'm doing down here in my marketing function. 

James Lawrence: It's really, really good. I mean, I've got three rapid fire questions to round out the pod. The first one is, what's been the hardest lesson or biggest challenge you've had in your career? 

Aimee Engelmann: The biggest challenge? It was early in my career, and this is when I was just blindsided about being redundant. It was maybe not like the hardest challenge, but it was the thing that hit me out of left field and I was not prepared for because I had no understanding that that was happening. So maybe it wasn't the most challenging, but it hit me the hardest because think I'm one of those people that like eyes wide open that things are not going to be perfect. And then there's some stuff that I worked with that were heavily affected by Covid in the Philippines. And in particular, a former staff member passed who I was very close to and helped build my business, and that was probably the most emotionally quite challenging. 

James Lawrence: That's horrible. The best career move or decision you've made? 

Aimee Engelmann: Starting my own business was probably the best. When I stepped out and decided to start a niche marketing agency, and that then put me on the entrepreneurship road for about 12 years. Yeah, so I think that was probably risky fun. And that's probably the best. 

James Lawrence: That's really cool. And then the final one, because we normally finish the pod with what's the best piece of career advice you'd give to a marketer? But the whole topic has been on this. I had to come up with a different final, final one. It's not. It's adjacent though. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received? 

Aimee Engelmann: Wow. This is what I remember a lot. Maybe not the best, but this is the one that's most memorable. I went and saw an American speaker who was Mike Moses, and he spoke about Out of Zero. What his concept was, was around mindset. And it was about pushing your mindset to the next level. So he was talking about when you're setting your goals at a zero. So if you're punching for 10 million revenue, you go for 100 million and work back from there and put your mind into a position that you don't have the limiting belief and think that, for me, rolls up into the whole mindset sort of concept. I think all the time about the limiting beliefs that I might have about future performance, that my team might have. The way that you think within the construct of what you're planning now. But if you add a zero to that, how can you achieve way more than that now? And that's all I'm going to do or achieve. So yeah, that's a bit of a mindset piece of advice that I remember frequently. 

James Lawrence: I love that one. Similar to one which is when you're trying to solve a problem, it's double the size of the problem and halve the time you have to solve it. Just to force the bigger box thinking. Love that. Thank you so much for coming on to the pod. Awesome stuff to take away for listeners. And thank you so much for your time. 

Aimee Engelmann: It's been fun. A little bit of a trip down memory lane too, which was great. Thanks for the opportunity, James. And before continuing to work with your agency and working with you.

James Lawrence: Thank you, Aimee.