PR in The Digital Age: 
From Newsrooms to Influencers

James Lawrence: Welcome back to the Smarter Marketer podcast. I'm here today with Andy Scales. Andy, welcome back to the pod.

Andy Scales: Thanks for having me back, James. Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised to get you at your call again a year after our last catch up. So obviously I didn't stuff up too much.

James Lawrence: It was a great conversation, the first one. So I will reintroduce you just for the benefit of many listeners that didn't catch your first pod. So Andy is founder and director of Campaign Lab, regarded at the moment as one of the most innovative PR agencies in the country.

Eight years into the journey, Campaign Lab has racked up more than 60 industry awards. Three times, I think top provokes rankings as apex pound for pound most creative PR agency. Um, Andy, , you've landed and worked on accounts and been the PR agency of choice for clients like Fiji Airways, Decathlon, Oppo, Love Honey, Fujifilm, Crowne Plaza and Hertz.

So Andy, when I thought just to catch up and talk about PR as we near the beginning of 2025, I thought it'd be awesome to have you back on , to the pod. So I'm just going to ask you a very broad question, which I think is sometimes the very difficult ones to answer. But, um, what are the big trends that we're seeing in PR as we kind of end 2024?

Andy Scales: Oh, wow. So starting with the big questions. I guess in terms of trends, first and foremost, it's It's harder than ever, I think, is the honest answer. Um, , we've got a situation where there's fewer and fewer people in the newsrooms.

We're seeing redundancies being made at some of the big major networks. So it's harder than ever to land a story. And then at the same time, we've got, , Comms, it's getting faster and faster. , everybody's trying to churn out stories. A lot of these media and journalists are being hit with, you know, literally hundreds of pitches , on a daily basis.

So to stand out , and secure editorial around coverage is, is really hard. So, , look, I think , in a number of ways. So that creates opportunities for PR agencies, , to be really, really creative in the thinking , and lead on bigger, more creative campaigns.

James Lawrence: And how does that, like how much PR these days is getting, you know, articles in publications versus other activity that you're doing.

Andy Scales: I think there's definitely, um, uh, a blurring of the lines. Look, we kind of position ourselves , as, , an earned first, , agency. , we do things across social media and influencers.

We do creatives, we do some, um, digital marketing as well. But every every element, every idea that we put forward will always have an end first element to it. So, , we essentially use media or journalists as the barometer to test out whether an idea is good or not. And if it if you can get past a news editor, then it can be rolled out across multiple channels.

So it's essential to everything that we do, but it's not It's not everything that we do if that makes sense.

James Lawrence: Yeah, but that's kind of the lead because it is hard right like You know, you mentioned you're doing digital marketing. There's an overlap between Rocket and Campaign Lab, right? Like a very small overlap where you'd be doing some digital media type services for certain clients that love the work you do in that earned space.

So, agencies are always going to have a little bit of an overlap and they might be a broad kind of cross section of where we work, but it's. bit, which I guess is the core thing that separate you from say rocket where we're purely digital. Is that kind of right?

Andy Scales: Yeah, absolutely. So it's about thinking holistically about how do we go to market with a message?

So, we may have a campaign idea or have an earned first element and , it's going to drive press coverage and then how can it be rolled out across other markets? , a lot of the time we'll work with digital advertising agencies and alike. So, you know, they'll manage that part of the program.

We'll manage the PR, but the idea itself has been either developed by us or in collaborate, you know, we've had a seat at the table from the start. And I think that that's the key part, because often. , where it can go wrong is when, you know, somebody comes to you and says, Hey, can you pay all this ad?

And at that point, it's a little bit too late. Whereas, you know, if you've got a seat at the table, then we can talk about how do we, how do we earn attention through this idea through, through and media, through editorial? , and what kind of tweaks can we make to this campaign concepts, , to ensure that it's got editorial value.

James Lawrence: That work? You kind of mentioned, you know, seat at the table. Don't bring us into quote unquote PR at the back end. How does integration best work?

James Lawrence: I guess if you know the audience to the bodies are in house marketers and they may or may not have a PR agency, they may or may not have a digital agency, comms agency, they're doing certain things in your house. Like how do you get the best outcome overall?

Andy Scales: Certainly being involved at the very beginning of the brief.

Andy Scales: , if I was speaking to a CMO tomorrow and they're asking, you know, what's the best way for them to put forward a brief, I think it would be about briefing the PR agency at the same time as you're briefing the creative agency, the media agency, et cetera. Um, you know, maybe coming back with tissue ideas and then how can we all kind of work collaboratively together to generate the best results?

Andy Scales: To give you an example of what I mean, maybe one of our biggest campaigns over the past year was a campaign called dirty weekend away. Um, so the original brief came to us and it was, , from you. If you claim we're about to launch a new vacuum, vacuum cleaner into market, very, very premium vacuum cleaner, brand new brand under a brand called mark.

Andy Scales: Um, you know, can you help us out with some PR? So originally it was PR product reviews, the press release, the maybe a media event. But, um, we looked at that as a, as an opportunity , to do something much bigger. So we came up with the concept of, of launching dirty weekend away, , which was, um, opportunity for consumers to stay in a 20 million mansion for free on one condition and that , they clean up on arrival.

Andy Scales: So, , we knew that the campaign was quirky enough. There was going to drive, um, mass media pick up. It was going to get them , into publications in travel sections and luxury mags and areas where, you know, quite frankly, a vacuum cleaner doesn't deserve to be. Um, so, you know, that had , that PR element thinking about it from a integrated approach.

Andy Scales: It was like, okay, , what's the goal that we're trying to achieve here? So for us, it was about new brand. How do we build up signups and on their website and those kinds of things. So working really closely with their digital marketing team to facilitate that. So you'd go to the website. If, if there was no bookings available, you can go on a wait list and that was capturing data and then using that data.

Andy Scales: Then the digital marketing, whether it's able to create first party data for retargeting campaigns, et cetera, et cetera. So. We weren't um directly doing the digital advertising element of it, but you know, we were working in sync with the the team doing that and and just I think having that understanding of how the broader picture Broader plan rolls out is important.

James Lawrence: How do you i'm always impressed? Um, From your agency and I think PR agencies in general, the way that you guys think, the way that when you speak to someone who's really, really good at PR, this kind of ideation and ability to kind of take something that is kind of here and move it kind of across to here as being of interest to the market.

James Lawrence: Like, how do you internally in the agency, how do you go about that kind of ideation? Like, how do you come up with Dirty Weekend Away, which I thought might have been from one of your different clients when you first, um, started. When you first mentioned it, campaign lab do work with love, honey, but I'm glad I was a vacuum cleaner brand.

James Lawrence: Keep, keep it, uh, you know, PG for the listeners to the pod, but like, like, what does it look like? How does your team come up with ideas that taken from being, you know, he's a prize versus he's something that's actually going to get traction.

Andy Scales: Yeah. So I think, um, there's probably two aspects to it, structured and unstructured. So, um, the structured stuff would be things like desk research. So like our whole ethos is about joining the conversation. So we know that people don't really care about vacuum cleaners and most of the time those launches suck.

Andy Scales: Forgive the, forgive the pun. Um, and

James Lawrence: preparing that all the way. Okay.

Andy Scales: So, you know, what are the conversations that that target market were having at the time? So we knew we're coming into peak travel period. There was lots of conversations about getaways and euro adventures and that kind of stuff. Um, so, you know, they were just some of the conversation.

Andy Scales: So a bit of desk research from structured side. , then we do ideation sessions and there's a number of different techniques that, That we use, um, different brainstorming techniques breaking into teams and individuals to ideate stuff like, . And then there's the unstructured.

Andy Scales: And honestly, I think like some of our biggest and best ideas have been from when people have just , gone out for a walk or, you know, they're having to think about something in, in, in the shower or getting ready in the morning, those kinds of things. And often it can just spark , a thought or an idea, um, that we share around and then you build it out from the, from there.

Andy Scales: And so. You know, even within, uh, within the agency as well, we've got like open lines of communications, which are literally like, um, ideas bins on messaging, group chats and things like that, where everyone's just firing in, throwing in ideas. We're also looking at what other brands have done and looking for inspiration because believe me, there's truly no such thing as a, as an original idea.

Andy Scales: It's all influenced by things around you. So, you know, we do a lot of that , and then we, build it out from there.

James Lawrence: I think the listeners who are primarily in house marketers, engaging agencies or doing things in house, like, how do you, as a business owner, price that?

James Lawrence: Because creativity is such a difficult, it's so intangible, right? I'm sure, like, you've had ideas that just nail, like, land in the first 30 minutes of a rainstorm or someone comes in after one night of having a think and got it and then other things just , won't land, right? Like, how do you actually resource it and kind of around the work commercially for agency and client.

Andy Scales: Yeah, it's a great question. And, and, um, look, I actually think that it's one of the things , for CMOs, any CMOs that are listening, I would, , really encourage them , to put a line item in any kind of scope of work for ideation, you know, ask the agency to come back, whether it's sort of once a quarter, twice a quarter, however much , you want , with fresh ideas, creative thinking, but Big ideas as well, you know, it's always easier to scale an idea right back to get within budget Then it try and you know polish a turd or build up a a crappy idea.

Andy Scales: So I think it's the most Valuable, asset that we've got as an agency is those ideas Um, and so, you know, i'd encourage people to to include that as some kind of line item or part of the ongoing process

James Lawrence: It's really interesting. So if we go back to.

James Lawrence: Journos, newsrooms, inundated, flooded, less resourcing, how do you make things stand out, how do you make it easier to get picked up, um, like what are those, hallmarks , of interesting ideas or interesting articles?

Andy Scales: I think, Our job is really about packaging up stories and presenting them in the most user friendly way for a journalist.

Andy Scales: You know, ultimately you want them to be able to take a story and make it very, very easy for them to run it. So , when you're pulling together a pitch, , you're thinking about what's the, what's the vision? Do I need video backing up? Do I need a talking head, from a CEO? Do I need?

Andy Scales: B roll case studies. If you're pitching for television, you need all of , those elements, um, still photography, graphics, all of, all of those kinds of things that might aid a story. Um, case studies, , do we have a consumer real life case study that we can draw on for quotes, , on the. point of quotes, , unique quotes for different media outlets as well, because I don't want to all run the same comments and commentary. So packaging up the story is super important. And then, um, then really identifying who do you really think is going to run it? Um, you know, and often you see, , perhaps some of the less experienced agencies or PR pros out there that might kind of fire out to a much broader media landscape, whereas we'd take a much more sniper like approach in terms of, , targeting media that we, we, we feel this can really resonate with.

Andy Scales: Um, And from there, , you generate results. And the more, um, the more stories you get in, the more those, those journalists are likely to come back to you for other opportunities in the future.

James Lawrence: Just make, make it easy and relevant. And

Andy Scales: it's, it's really not rocket science. And , I think , that's the thing about, about PR, but you know, often , it's very easy to try and cut corners , and, , really, if you want to, if you want to drive coverage, then you want to be making sure that you've got the package for them and for those media.

James Lawrence: Yeah, it feels to me that the actual getting picked up is not the hard bit, but it's coming up with the interesting story in the angle and all the assets in the first instance, right? It's still pretty hard, but not the heart, not the heart of it. Like, I think the, I don't know, my feeling is, is that it's the perspective and the angle that you guys bring.

James Lawrence: It's like the really versus the email address of a journalist, right? Like, I think that's the. Yeah,

Andy Scales: absolutely. Yeah. I mean, anybody can subscribe to software and get media, you know, email addresses and pitching a story, but it's about identifying those angles and doing things that are generally going to get people talking about the brand, the product, the story, whatever it is you're pitching, , if you think again, sort of back to the Dirty Weekend Away concept, it was that kind of that moment.

Andy Scales: It's like, you can stay in this villa for This 20 million villa in Tamarama for free, but you've got a, you've got a vacuum when you arrive. So we had really amazing visuals with it. We had this 20 million mansion with like shit everywhere that you had to vacuum up , and, you know, it just kind of sparked an interest among people.

Andy Scales: So what it also enabled them to do as well was , to get outside of their traditional media. So Yes, we could have fired out a press release about a new vacuum being launched and probably had some pick up across the tech titles. But this was on the project, you know, Daily Telegraph, news dot com. A. U.

Andy Scales: This was in places where, , you wouldn't expect to see, , a story about a vacuum cleaner. , but it that was the audience that I wanted to go after and reach mainstream media with it.

James Lawrence: I presume that then the idea could live on right where you actually would have then had footage of the cleanup being out of them pump that out through social and

Andy Scales: absolutely.

Andy Scales: Yes. , so we used , that property is as the launch venue for, , the products. We had a launch event as well. So, you know, tech media and consumer media came down and some influences unveiled the products. And then after it went live, we then, um, did a bunch of media and influence it for mills.

Andy Scales: So it was like the ultimate kind of product test. We, Write them down. We book them in for one night. They'd get to experience this amazing property and try out the vacuum cleaner and then, you know, base their reviews and write their reviews off the back of that. So, yeah, we had influence to stay there.

Andy Scales: We ran competitions for consumers that were unable to get a book in. They could win a night there and it went on and on and on. And, , the campaign was a huge success.

James Lawrence: It's really cool. Um, what about in a B2B context? What similar principles apply and how do things kind of differ when you're trying to market a product that is to be marketed to, to a business sector?

Andy Scales: Yeah, B2B is an interesting space because I think For one reason or another, a lot of B to B brands can get stuck in a rut of doing the same as everyone else in terms of their approach. They might do a bit of content marketing, they might do, you know, some digital advertising, some trade release, um, and , they can get very serious , with the, um, marketing strategies where I feel like What, regardless whether it's B2B or B2C, you're still talking about humans and human interaction.

Andy Scales: So I think that, you know, there's an opportunity to have some fun with what they're doing and be a bit more playful perhaps. And, um, yeah, think a little bit more creatively.

James Lawrence: Definitely feels that's the trend in B2B marketing is, you kind of touched on it, the whole B2H thing. And there's definitely some differences, but.

James Lawrence: Bringing personality, bringing humor, bringing tone of voice that is far less formal, seems to be the trend of a lot of you know, Marketing that's kind of taking place those days.

Andy Scales: I'll take you back maybe like 12, 14 years, but one of the best campaigns that I ever ran was for a construction hire company in the UK called, , dumpers for goalposts.

Andy Scales: And it was a soccer related campaign to tie in , with the world cup soccer world cup that was taking place at the time. And again, it was about joining the conversations. They knew that the construction workers on site weren't talking about, you know, backhoe loaders and skid steer dumpers. They were talking about the world cup.

Andy Scales: So it was, we ran this whole content marketing campaign where we had, um, uh, information hub on soccer, but we also had, Dumpers that were painted in, in, in national colors and all that kind of stuff that you could hire. So just thinking a little bit differently, , being a bit more kind of broader with the messaging, I think, is an opportunity for B2B customers.

James Lawrence: Yeah, nice one. Um, in terms of AI, how are you, we've done kind of a lot of pods, probably more from a digital marketing kind of viewpoint as to how, what we're seeing the impact of AI, like, how do you, what are you seeing? Within the PR industry, how AI is changing things or not changing things, and then, um, without trying to get too far into the future, like, what do you see as the kind of core themes or trends there?

Andy Scales: Yeah, um, AI , is very useful. , we use it and have been using it for a long time, whether it's Gemini, chatGBT, some of the other tools as well. Um, I describe it, , as being like a really fucking good account exec, um, in, uh, You know, first draft of things or, um, some, uh, some background and notes and things like that, it's, it's very useful.

Andy Scales: It still needs a lot of human input. , from what we see, , from a and media or editorial perspective, , it's quite an interesting space. I think , there's , a lot of concern around, you know, will AI take journalist jobs and those kinds of things.

Andy Scales: We're also seeing , some of the tech. Media, for example, now putting badges up on their sites to say that it's not a I generated content. , I think it's, from what we do is very useful and I think it's only going to get stronger. , What I'd like to see, , see it doing more of is taking away , some of the admin time, um, involved , in PR, the reporting , and those kinds of things.

Andy Scales: And, , maybe sort of leveraging it more in that way.

James Lawrence: Yeah, fair enough. What are the other big areas of PR at the moment? I presume last time we chatted, we talked quite a lot around, I guess, the intersection of both of our areas, where digital.

James Lawrence: And PR kind of coming together, um, talked about our industry being a digital marketing industry saying kind of digital PR as being a really effective way of generating offsite interest in a brand for SEO purposes. What are you seeing out there?

Andy Scales: I think, um, probably one of the, one of the areas that we're seeing a lot of opportunity in is probably around affiliate PR.

Andy Scales: We're seeing a lot of that across media outlets. If you have a look at, you know, news. com. au or any of the kind of the shopping listicles, they'll all say. You know, a number of these articles, products mentioned in this article include affiliate links. So that is getting bigger than ever. And , we think that's going to be a trend that continues and something that we're,

James Lawrence: And what, what is that?

James Lawrence: Is that kind of outbrown into Bula or is that separate to that?

Andy Scales: It's, um, essentially like using affiliate links , for any of those publishers. So there'll be any of the product mentions, they'll have an affiliate link, um, associated with that. So from a PR side, we still be pitching those stories.

Andy Scales: But if we're pitching those stories, knowing that there are affiliate codes around those products for those publishers, then obviously it stands much more chance of getting pickup.

James Lawrence: So you're writing it out. You're putting an article together about a new TV, and then at the bottom of that article, links to buy that TV will appear on the page, and the publisher of that article would get, , a percentage of the purchase.

Andy Scales: So probably the best examples, if you look at things like, um, uh, black Friday gift guides or Christmas gift guides, and the top presents for father's day, those kinds of things. So a lot of those will have affiliate links behind them. So the publishers will be taking a commission of somebody though, then goes on to, to purchase that product.

Andy Scales: So I think that's probably a really Interesting example of where the lines are kind of getting blurred between PR and digital marketing. , and at the same time, , we're seeing a number of these publishers, you know, are cutting stuff. They're having to make cuts. They're looking for the new revenue models and ways to make money.

Andy Scales: So , you can understand it.

James Lawrence: And do they have a duty to disclose when they're , making a commission?

Andy Scales: Yeah, yeah. So all of those articles will include a disclaimer at the top to say that they may receive affiliate payments. So not every single link will have an affiliate link, but some of them certainly will.

James Lawrence: Yeah, interesting. Um, and what are you saying in terms of digital PR as it relates to kind of generating links for clients? I think it's something that, um, your English, the digital PR industry, I think, has kind of strong, , Links as bad as you was talking about something sucking talking in relation to a vacuum cleaner, but the digital power industry does have strong links to the UK.

James Lawrence: Are you seeing people reach out to you when you're getting, um, articles. Published online is knock on effect or the benefit of generating link something that your clients are caring about or asking about or

Andy Scales: yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So from an SEO perspective is super, super important.

Andy Scales: I'd say all of our clients care about that. So yeah, absolutely. backlinks. Backlinks are super important. We're obviously from a PR agency side of things where we push for inclusion. It's not given. You know, these are these around media articles. So, , we'll always will always be looking for them to be included.

Andy Scales: There's no guarantee that's gonna happen. So a lot of the time that does come down to relationships and have you, , package something up for a certain journalist or offered or gone over and above to help them with a story and then they're more inclined to include it or also more inclined to include the link if it adds value to the reader as well.

Andy Scales: So, you know, are they going to go to this through this link and discover or learn something more? Is it going to be a further assistance to them thinking about what you know what is on the other side of that link? I think is super important.

James Lawrence: Yeah, nice. And in terms of social media, how do you put together? A package where like presuming the idea comes first and then looking at where it is best suited to play out would make sense. But what kind of role of social

Andy Scales: Massive role? Always looking at influencer partnerships, organic, social, and then how do we work with some of those influences to then drive?

Andy Scales: So, um, you know, you'll often see, , news articles commenting on the latest tick tock trend, , and those kinds of things. So we'll take influencer content that's been published and then repitch that back into the media about, , whatever the story might be, , and link through to that particular social post.

Andy Scales: , another. example I can give you is, is probably a campaign that we did recently for, , thrifty car rental. , that had big social, a big integrated, um, element to it as well. So, um, from a PR side of things, we know that it's pretty difficult to, keep trying to pitch in stories about car hire.

Andy Scales: There's not too many publications that cover stories about car hire. So the idea came about around. , the experiences that customers have and families have when hiring cars and going on road trips, and we identified the road trip tantrums that kids have on a road trip. So, , we did a partnership for thrifty with the Wiggles and launched a campaign called Backseat Bandmates.

Andy Scales: And it was basically an interactive kids booklet where had music through the Bluetooth, some puzzles, games, some coloring and stuff. And we made it free for customers. Anyone hired a, , thrifty car could, um, would get access to one of these one of these packs. So, , That again, , enabled us to drive mass media coverage for the brand across Australia and New Zealand.

Andy Scales: We use consumer research to help delve in and discover some of those news angles. So we quantified, for example, the number of times The kids ask, are we there on a road trip? Everyone can relate to it. Anyone has been in a car kids doesn't matter if it's your own kids, your friends, kids, you know, would know that that question comes up a lot and it actually comes up 8.

Andy Scales: 4 times per road trip. I can tell you that. , but then there was a big influencer and social element to it as well. , we'd make the vehicles available , to influencers, , to go on a weekend road trip and to, and to road test , these booklets with.

Andy Scales: With their kids, but then capture that content and then use it across our own channels and use it also to pitch back into media, , to drive further coverage.

James Lawrence: That's an awesome campaign. How do you, go about identifying a good influencer and then how do you go about working with them to maximize, , success for your client?

Andy Scales: Software is the short answer to that. So a bit like any of the tools that you'll use, , from a digital advertising perspective, we're using them for, for influencers as well. Um, so, you know, we can quickly look at, , a social media influencer and look at not just their reach, but what's their true reach, , in, in, in terms of , how many, , accounts are they actually reaching in which markets, , we can look at past.

Andy Scales: Brand collaborations with them. Have they worked with all my competitors or is this, you know, or are they working with complimentary brands? , engagement rates, obviously. And also look at things like the language they use. , are they using a lot of profanities? Profanities, , on their channel and therefore does it really resonate with, with the brand?

Andy Scales: And then from that, we come back, we have some scoring and we come back and say, , whether we think this person would be a good fit or a bad fit, , as well as potential costs as well, which are getting crazy, by the way.

James Lawrence: Yeah, right. And so that is, that's the thing. Like CPCs are going up in digital media, cost of influence is going up as well.

Andy Scales: Yeah, massively. I mean, social media influences aren't new and the market is, you know, quite mature. But in the great scheme of things, it's still a little bit like the wild west out there in terms of some of the rates that are being banded around. , it's kind of scary.

James Lawrence: Interesting and then any tips for because you do hear nightmare stories right about influences not fulfilling kind of their obligation or just not being particularly good to work with like any tips on the best way to manage influences once you identify when you want to work with.

Andy Scales: think briefings are super important.

Andy Scales: I mean, it sounds obvious, but you know, making sure that you're having clear briefings with them around so that everyone knows what the expectation is and that both parties feel comfortable with it., often I think where it can sometimes fall down is where, um, an influence is creating content that they know is going to work on their platform.

Andy Scales: These guys have perfected the art. of creating content on their platform that resonates with their audience. So often, , the challenge that we see is when, , an influencer is perhaps working with a brand that's slightly different to them in terms of tone and messaging is square peg round hole, um, that kind of scenario where by, um, You know, the brand wants something portrayed a certain way, but the influence is not going to do that.

Andy Scales: And then of course the content comes back and , it's different to how the brand envisaged it. So I think briefings on both part are really, really important. Then of course, contracts

and,

Andy Scales: you know, making sure that those deliverables and everything are captured clearly in contract agreements.

James Lawrence: Yeah, I think that's really interesting just around the, um, because we've probably another area where we have a little bit of overlap is in influences in our paid social media team.

James Lawrence: And that's something which we're trying to work with clients on as well. Very much around if you're going to. If you want to go to the influencer path, you need to understand that they have an audience that, that trust them, that like them, that have, you know, over the, over months and years have built up a relationship with that influencer and that influencer is authentic and you need to allow that person to kind of, to move in that direction.

James Lawrence: Like it must be such a challenge for businesses where back in the day you controlled, um, the narrative. You could, Through your paid advertising, TV, radio, and now you look at social media, and it's also fragmented. Like, is that authenticity thing? , how are you seeing brands dealing with that?

Andy Scales: Consumers can be, , incredibly skeptical, I think , of brands, , that are trying to, just force a message, you know, media as well. If you think consumers are skeptical about a campaign and, you know, you speak to a few journalists because, , , once you hear back from them, , they're the most skeptical, , the no bullshit kind of.

Andy Scales: Media types. , I think though, that authenticity pieces is crucial. , not just with the influences that you're working with, but also just in terms of the campaigns that you're doing, like what's the relevance back to me as a brand and having relevance and authenticity around it is key. Um, to give you another example of one we did recently, obviously Hot Topics, the Olympics.

Andy Scales: We worked with Decathlon, , on a campaign called, , Playgrounds to Podiums. So, you know, even just in the name and everything and the type of brand that Decathlon is, , you can tell that it's going to be truly authentic. And it was all about how do we help, engage. younger kids into playing more and more sport, especially in a world where, you know, everyone's playing computer games or on social media and those kind of things.

Andy Scales: And, , how do you get them participating in more sport and getting them out there? So, yeah, playgrounds to podiums was a campaign that we ran with them. There was an influencer element to it, but essentially, , It was that anybody could submit their school or their school Children as for to receive part of a grant that they were running throughout the country.

Andy Scales: Again, we had sort of consumer research stuff. It was designed to showcase, um, just how few sports Aussie kids are playing at the moment and then where we could go potentially in the future if they were to pay more. So, you know, that was an interesting way of Mhm. tapping into the Olympics fever. At times we knew it was going to drive press coverage.

Andy Scales: It was joining the conversation around the Olympics. , we then had Big integrated effort. So we work really closely with their in house team, around all of the digital marketing side of things. So they had EDMs, they had in store, , posters and displays going on. Whole wealth of work going on by their team, who are awesome, by the way.

Andy Scales: And also influencers and social media side of things, but truly authentic content that resonates with them. , we'd have expert, , commentary from their, , their team that are in store at the time and things like that, talking about different sports and how kids can get involved, um, because it was more authentic.

Andy Scales: And I think

James Lawrence: that's

Andy Scales: important.

James Lawrence: Yeah, nice one. I guess, um, in terms of measurement, what kind of metrics do you encourage your clients to look at to judge the efficacy of your work?

Andy Scales: I think that's something that has to be agreed with them, to be honest. So literally the other day, I was looking at, um, we used.

Andy Scales: Different. I won't name a name, but we use media monitoring software and none of them are great. If I'm honest, they all miss coverage. There's, , some of the numbers are just kind of wild. This campaign report shows something like during a month. I earned media reach of like 1. 1 billion and I nearly fell off my fucking chair.

Andy Scales: Like, you know, this is ridiculous., the number that was being, sounds like you

James Lawrence: guys have done a great job.

Andy Scales: Yeah.

Andy Scales: So, you know, and I think if you're using those kind of entry metrics then um it's you're gonna have problems what we would prefer to do and what we do with most of our clients is really talk about what's the overall goal of PR I mean so is it you know try and get registrations for this Form or something like that.

Andy Scales: Or , is it about driving sales or is it about changing sentiment of a brand because, we've been bashed over the head too much , for the past couple of years and our brand reputation has taken a hit. What's the thing that we're trying to achieve? Measure it at the start and measure it at the end.

Andy Scales: And I think that's probably the clearest way. , that you can do it and whether you can measure success.

James Lawrence: Yeah, fair enough. So very custom to spending depending on what you're being engaged to do.

Andy Scales: Well, I think so. Otherwise, you know, if you used to like off the shelf metrics and you just purely based in success on how many number of articles did I get and what was the reach of that, then you're going to run into problems because , there's so many influencing factors to whether a story runs and how many pieces it gets. And, you know, if you're not looking at sentiment around it and things like that, , or understanding the environment in which you're operating at that given time, then, , the numbers being displayed could mean anything.

Andy Scales: I'm just not sure what value people tend to take away from , those metrics. Understand you've got to measure something, but I think it's a case of going, okay, what was. You know, what was , the objective of what we're trying to do from PR perspective, and then what measurements can be put in place.

Yeah.

Andy Scales: Yeah. And it's the same for you, right? From a digital advertising perspective. So, you know, if you were showing cost per view of everything and you're, Oh, the cost per view wasn't very good, but you know, well, that wasn't the objective of the campaign. It was about link clicks. Then, , it's a very different number.

Andy Scales: And so understanding what the objective of those campaigns were at the start before, um, before executing a measure in them is critical.

James Lawrence: Common sense. I agree. So I guess if you're thinking of engaging an agency similar to or a function similar to campaign lab, what would be your advice for, for running PR and getting the most out of it in your business?

Andy Scales: Firstly, , I think it's important to get the brief right , from the start, I've seen it before, fortunately not with, with the clients that we work with, but I've seen it before where, , you get a half page brief and then they're expecting, you know, you to go take that away and do something with it.

Andy Scales: I think that a really clear brief, it , will deliver, , the best results. So I think , that's really important is that briefing stage. Also being realistic around the expectations, around some of the outcomes , and not expecting like an immediate impact.

Andy Scales: I think that PR is about momentum and it's about, um, building up that momentum in the media. And you'll see, , from that, the other opportunities, interview opportunities, coverage opportunities come along. I think also being responsive as well. So a PR team will be, will be pitching the life out of the story.

Andy Scales: So then, , if that team then, um, uncovers an opportunity for interview, it's about making yourself. Ready and available , and doing it at any given time.

James Lawrence: Yeah, that's really good advice, I think, in terms of a marketer looking at PR. I guess, conversely, , what are, the mistakes or the pitfalls, the things to avoid? Like, , you've been doing this for a long time now. , what are , , Those things you just don't know.

Andy Scales: Yeah, I think probably assuming that people care about your business because honestly, most of the time that they don't. Um, but if you start from a position of nobody gives a shit about my brand, , and then build from there, then you're probably in a really good place. So from there you can decide, , who do we want to go after?

Um, what conversations are they currently having in the market? How do we join and be a part of those conversations and then build out marketing plans and strategies off the back of that? Yeah.

James Lawrence: And it does make sense because it feels from how you kick the session off today with it's just getting harder, right?

Like it's harder for us to get things published journals are in environments where their jobs are being made tougher. They probably happen to do more in their day. You've kind of reference them not being jaded, but being pretty,, cynical or skeptical of the stories being put forward to them. So I guess if you take your brand away from it and just go, how do I actually put something forward that's going to make.

The publishers readers actually engaged. Um,

Andy Scales: exciting opportunity as well, because it kind of gives us, uh, you know, from an immediate perspective to think , really creatively and come up with something, , a campaign, a story initiative that people really care about and they're going to engage with.

And that, for me, it's pretty exciting.

James Lawrence: Must go down with like a lead balloon when you kick that off with your new client. The perspective we're going to bring to this engagement is that no one gives a crap about your business.

Andy Scales: It's true, right? And I think that, , sometimes , a lot of businesses can get, , They're probably guilty of drinking the Kool Aid a little bit.

It can happen. So that's the importance of having agency partners, because we can bring that kind of honest, fair, a neutral perspective , to things as well. And then talk about the things that perhaps consumers do care about. Um, and some of those bits might be parts of the business and brand. I'm sure

James Lawrence: love it, mate. , thanks so much for coming back on to the pod. , we finish every episode with the same question. So I'm , going to ask it of you, Andy.

What's the best piece of career advice that you'd give to a marketer?

Andy Scales: Okay, my best piece of career advice would be what my old boss once said to me once, which was, if you aim at nothing, you'll hit it. So always have a plan for what you're trying to go and what you're trying to achieve with any kind of marketing plan.

James Lawrence: Love it. That's a great one. Never heard that before.

Andy Scales: That's my last one.

James Lawrence: We'll have to check it. Andy Scales, thanks for coming back on the pod.

Andy Scales: Thanks James.