Dr. Robert Cialdini on Persuasion and Influence in Modern Marketing

James Lawrence: Welcome back to the Smarter Marketer Podcast. I'm here today with a man that needs little introduction, the godfather of influence, Robert Cialdini. Robert, welcome to the pod.

Robert Cialdini: Well, thank you, James. I'm glad to be with you and your listeners.

James Lawrence: I'm very much looking forward to our conversation today. The principles, have had such a massive impact, right? Worldwide on influence, on persuasion in sales, marketing, personal relationships.

There's over 7 million copies of the book Influence have now been sold. Where I was kinda keen to start the conversation was there's thousands of shortcuts, right? As to how we're wired as humans and how we can be persuaded or influenced to do things. How did you go about that process of bringing so many different shortcuts and things together into these easy to digest principles?

Robert Cialdini: You're exactly right that there are hundreds, maybe thousands of individual tactics and techniques and practices that could be employed to move people in our direction.

But that's, there are too many for us to handle, to remember , to make contact with in a particular situation where we suddenly have to be influential. So the key is to break them down into principles that govern all of those. And I did that by becoming, a spy of sorts. , I went undercover and joined in the training programs of as many influence professions as I could get access to.

I would answer ads, uh, for salespeople or marketers or, uh, charity, uh, solicitors or, um, uh, recruiters, and learn what those, , industries, what those, , arenas said. In their training programs were the most effective strategies for moving people in their direction.

And I looked for the commonalities across those various, , arenas.

And what surprised me was how small the footprint was. I only counted [00:02:00] six the principles that everybody was using. Right. , I've since added a seventh, but at that time there were only six and I thought, well, that would be worth, I. Writing a book with each one to a chapter. Yeah. And explaining why that principle is effective, , where it gets its power, how to employ it in, , an ethical way.

Yeah. To in indeed generate, , influence. , That was the strategy to move out of my laboratory. I was a university professor, researcher, move away from the college campus to see what the people whose business it is. To get others to say yes, had learned over long periods of time through , trial and error worked for them.

And you know, the interesting thing was if I was in a marketing program, they'd say, you know, marketing is not the same as sales. Here's the difference. , And then if I went to an advertising program, they say, , [00:03:00] advertising's not the same as marketing. And if I went to, , a college, , recruitment, , group, , they'd say, you know, soliciting funds is not the same as advertising.

They were right. There were always differences between the various influence professions.

James Lawrence: Yeah.

Robert Cialdini: But they weren't quite focusing on those differences. They weren't asking the right question. What's the same?

James Lawrence: Yeah.

Robert Cialdini: What works in all of them.

Those are the universal principles that are likely to be successful across populations and circumstances and situations.

James Lawrence: And the outcome of the work is amazing, I think it's 44 different languages the book's been translated into. And famous people in all different disciplines that all kind of point to this book as the book that most shaped them. And it is in, I have incredible,

Robert Cialdini: I have a colleague in Poland, professor Vina ska said, you know, Robert, your book Influence is so famous in Poland. My [00:04:00] students think you're dead.

James Lawrence: You're not,

Robert Cialdini: which is sobering, but kind of affirming at the same time that these Yeah, these, have the. The character of something that's a perennial, it's not just, in a temporary situation that you'll find these things active and Oh, I think that's right. The

James Lawrence: fact that, um, I mean I think the book was written in the mid eighties, right?

And I, I picked it up in the mid two thousands and it has shaped my career. And now 20 years on from that, , and I think, , in 40 years into the future, that will be true. , I think there'd be a good, , chunk of the audience who , are very familiar with the book and, and with your work and probably those that might not be.

And I think it would be interesting, , I guess to go through those, the six principles and then how that seventh came to be. 'cause it's , the six have stood the test of time, so I can't, I imagine that it wasn't without a lot of thought as to , adding a seventh.

Robert Cialdini: , I think you're right. , Let's talk about quickly the six principles that caught my eye as the universals.

, The first is reciprocation, [00:05:00] which is a rule that exists in every human culture. , We feel obligated to give back to those who have first given to us. We simply say yes to those we owe is. So the implication is we have to go first. We have, it's not that we give gifts or favors or services, , information to people as a thank you at the end of our experience with them, after they've signed the contract, after we've done the work for no first.

Before, and that inclines them to feel , warmly towards us. Grateful, oh, you've given me, , some kind of value , and the rule says, now it's my turn. Mm-hmm. So reciprocity, go first. Give, give first Another, uh, is that no one would be surprised. This is, uh, liking. We prefer to say yes to those, , we like and who like us.

, And one way to produce that effect is to give people genuine compliments. Mm-hmm. To give them, , true praise [00:06:00] that exists in the situation to, uh, identify something we find commendable and comment on it. Another is to point to similarities that exist between us. Oh, , you like Korean food?

I like Korean food. Mm-hmm. , That sort of thing. 'cause people, we like those who are like us.

James Lawrence: It's kind of a you car salesman. , What do you need to use the boot of the car for? Or put my golf clubs in? You play golf. I play golf. Get the chance of, uh, closing the deal.

Robert Cialdini: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. They always lift to those similarities, uh, to consciousness and to the extent that they're genuine. That's fine. I, if we point to these principles that are truly there in this situation, we're entitled to similarities and genuine praise for somebody , who warrants that praise and so on.

, So , that's liking. Another is, , social proof. The idea that people who are uncertain about to what to do in a situation, look to those around them as to what they are doing [00:07:00] in that situation. What have the majority of people been doing and saying and believing and, uh, recommending in this situation.

And so if we have that evidence, we need to make it very prominent to people. , Especially if we have a trend. Upward because people will extend that trend, the trajectory of that trend into the future. And we'll have something called future social proof that isn't even there yet. But if there's a trend in that direction, we should focus on that, that really spurs people to want to get in with us on the ground floor.

James Lawrence: Right.

Robert Cialdini: It was a, um,

James Lawrence: I think it's in , the updated version, but it was an unintended, I kind of found it reasonably funny. The unintended consequence. There was a, sign, I think it was at the Grand Canyon National Park around, you know, please do not take, . Anything out of the park every year, 14 million , something, right?

Amount of stuff gets taken, like rocks or something, get the matter gets taken out, right? And there was this, , highly [00:08:00] honest, ethical woman and it was the fact that other people were doing that thing that made her actually wanna go off and do it, or indeed go and get a, get

Robert Cialdini: a petrified, uh, uh, sliver of wood.

Yeah, wood. So, yeah. So it's a very powerful principle. It has a special, , leverage I in, , modern day online communications because it's so easy to get information about what others around us and have been doing or are doing, the number of stars that are given, the number of reviews and recommendations and so on , that come and that are available.

, So, , presenting that. Is gold. Yeah. Uh, when, when you have it, . We see it kind of everywhere, don't we? With We do. , , One thing I would suggest is people will often say we have, a thousand, , four and five, , star reviews. They should say, we have 1,004 and five star reviewers.

Yeah. Nothing [00:09:00] views. , That's a check mark. No, there are people there. Then in your mind you see that individual resonating Yeah. To your product or service.

James Lawrence: Yeah. , Such a subtle shift with such a powerful impact. Right.

Robert Cialdini: You know, that's one of the things we're interested in these days, small bigs.

The smallest change we can make that will produce the biggest impact on our persuasive success. So something like adding two, two letters to the word review to re to be reviewers instead of reviews. Right. Is the consummate example of a small big Yeah. That shapes where people are focused at that particular time on others around them, like them.

Yeah. That's exactly what you wanted. That's fascinating. . Another is authority. Uh, again, when we're uncertain, we don't look inside ourselves for [00:10:00] answers. There's too much confusion there. If we're uncertain, we look outside. And one place is to peers, social proof. The other is to experts.

People who, , are credentialed, who have experience and who can testify. To the quality of what we have to offer, , or , if we can establish ourselves as highly informed and experienced on a particular topic with high levels of competence, once we do that, then people are willing to lend the ear at a much, , higher, , probability.

James Lawrence: Yeah. And I think it's , some of your work, it's someone wearing a uniform versus someone not wearing a uniforms, even to the extent of someone wearing a suit versus someone not wearing a suit that Yeah. The kind of credibility or authority that covers to move somewhere.

That's

Robert Cialdini: exactly right. There's this study that if somebody in a suit crosses the street against the light, against the traffic, against the law, three times as many people follow than [00:11:00] if that same person was dressed casually. Just the aura of authority. , Is enough to produce an automatic, , deference.

Yeah, definitely. Um,

James Lawrence: I remember that I got put onto Influence, um, in the mid two thousands when there was an Australian TV show that essentially took the principles and put them into a real world kind of context.

, But the idea of conferred authority, you know, if I say I'm great at tennis, you'll be like, Hey, maybe he is, but if someone else says, I'm great at tennis, you go, yeah. Well, he probably is. Um, and even introducing. Team members , in a sales meeting or, , when you, , you're an mc and you're getting someone to come up and speak, it's that ability to confer authority onto someone else,

Robert Cialdini: right?

Right. It's so important. Very often we hand off customers or clients to someone else in our organization. That other person needs to be credentialized by us before they ever interact with that customer, client, or prospect so that their [00:12:00] genuine, , competence and experience is, , manifest. Yeah. Again, it's entirely true.

We're just pointing to something so it's ethical at the same time.

James Lawrence: That just comes through all of your work, right? Which is all of these principles they need to be used based on the truth. Based on reality, and using them is , not negative as long as they're manifesting a truth, right? As a being used for a nefarious purpose.

Robert Cialdini: Exactly right. The thing we have to watch out for is the people , who lie with statistics or claim that they're authorities when they're not, or that they have a lot of market share when they don't. Those are the people we have to, , penalize for that, , with online criticism of what they do so that they don't misdirect, , us.

, We need these shortcuts. We need these principles to, , work effectively in our environments. And so the people who undermine , their validity or , their [00:13:00] usefulness need to be, , penalized.

, The next would be something, , people recognize it's scarcity. People want more of those things they can have less of. And , as a result, if you can show what's unique about your offer, your product, your service, your idea, people will stop and listen because they want what they can't otherwise get if you are the only vendor who's gonna provide that.

Right. And a lot of times it's not one thing, but I bet a lot of us will have a suite of features that together none of our rivals can match. We have this particular combination and if we put that together and. Elevate it in consciousness to, , the recipients of our message. , This [00:14:00] is something that we have, you can't get this combination anywhere else .

Those people are going to listen because of this rule of people want more of what they can have less of.

James Lawrence: Hmm. That was , in the first edition of the book, and probably in the second the, I think the Concord went from two flights a day to one or two a week to one. The flight hasn't changed.

It's still got exactly the same features as it's always had. I. As soon as you take away , people's ability to get on it, like sales traveled or whatever it was, because , the fear of loss , is much stronger than the kind of , the feature , of the benefit

Robert Cialdini: you've really put your finger on.

One of the reasons scarcity works well, it's loss aversion. , fomo, fear of missing out, , is very, powerful in human conduct. And so what we have is scarce or dwindling in availability or rare, , that I. Implies that if you don't move in this direction, you lose this thing.

Mm-hmm. You, you lose [00:15:00] access to this opportunity and people hate the idea of losing something of value.

James Lawrence: Yeah. I think the studies around, and, , correct me if I'm wrong, but it's , the chance of winning a hundred dollars versus the chance of losing 50 and it's humans will always kinda lean towards not losing 50 bucks.

Even if the, even if it was even odds either way. Yeah.

Robert Cialdini: Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel Prize for his prospect theory that showed that the prospects of losing a unit of value, let's say a dollar produce significantly more motivation to have that thing than the prospects of gaining that very same thing.

Losses, . Motivating.

James Lawrence: It was a , good story , in the updated book. , I think someone writing in going, have I been played here? It was, , classic retail. Coming back to that ethical use of these, these principles or not going into a Best Buy, which is , in America the big, what we would call JB Hi-Fi, , the classic TV discounted, I don't even really wanna buy a tv, but it's a good price.

And then the sales rep comes over and is like, Hey, there's only one [00:16:00] left. And a lady just called up saying she might come in this afternoon and get it ended up with the TV at home. And it's like, you know, yeah. Is is this, is it nice? And then went back the next day and sure enough, it wasn't, it wasn't on the shelf and it was the last one.

Robert Cialdini: Yeah. Right. No, that's the thing I, that happened to me and I'm supposed to be the, , godfather , of influence. And it happened to me, and I know about, uh, loss aversion and I know about rivalry for a scarce resource. , I was wheeling out of that shop with that TVs , in my, , basket after 20 minutes because if it was true, I wanted it more.

Yeah.

James Lawrence: I don't know if, you know, Blair ends the Canadian consultant and like a lot of pricing stuff and you hear him talk about price anchoring. And he is like, it's just the worst. Like, I'm a pricing guy, I'm a pricing consultant and know all of the psychology behind it and it still works on me.

Robert Cialdini: Yeah. We're human And [00:17:00] that makes it, , especially important to know this because the people we're trying to move in our direction are also human.

James Lawrence: Yeah.

Robert Cialdini: So, , if it works on us, it's likely to work on the, those folks too.

James Lawrence: That's right. And so much Well, great marketing is really about understanding humans, isn't it?

And understanding the customer and your market and what you're trying to achieve there.

Robert Cialdini: That's right. I think when people ask me, well, so , what's the thing that, , a marketer should have? And, , you get a lot of, , good answers, but the one that I rarely hear is empathy. Be able to put yourself in the position of your market, , of the people who you want to move in your direction.

Don't think about it in terms of, , what you might know , uh, think about it in terms of their situation, their circumstances. Put yourself in that. And that clarifies approaches, , to, communication.

James Lawrence: It's a great observation. I think, as I go further into my business career, and so many highly [00:18:00] successful business people are ones that never lose sight of their customer and their customer's pain points and make decisions based on removing friction and , big environments at like a Jeff Bezos, Amazon type story, but even like at a much smaller level, often these hyper successful businesses have someone deriving from the top that truly understand the customer pain points. Right,

Robert Cialdini: exactly. , We ought to always structure that , as an early kind of, , screen through which , we send all of our possibilities and, , communication options.

James Lawrence: That's really, really interesting. So, , they're the six principles, right? In the original book. . And that was how we, viewed influence. , , , how did you then get to a point of going, hang on, there's, , there's something else here.

Robert Cialdini: Yeah. And that's something else is what we're calling Unity. It's the sense , of shared identity with another person. If we feel that , they are [00:19:00] not just similar to us, but one of us. It's not about similar, it's about belonging to a category. And it can be , a religious denomination, it can be a political affiliation, it could be an employment setting, it could be , a locale, , in this community.

I consider myself one of the, and. To the extent that we can show people that we share one or another of those unifying, , connections and the pronoun we applies, everything gets easier inside the influence process. All the barriers come down because we are conditioned to favor and follow those in our, , identity.

Groups. , And , those can be a variety of even sports fans of a particular kind [00:20:00] of team. That happened to me, , where, , I learned that, , my favorite football team is the Green Bay Packers, the, and the NFL team in the United States. And I learned that the celebrities, , Justin Timberlake and Lil Wayne were avid Green Bay Packer fans.

James, I immediately thought better of their

James Lawrence: music. Didn't, didn't think, didn't think this conversation was going gonna go toward Lil Wayne. Uh, little

Robert Cialdini: Wayne, I'm not, isn't, we don't have similarity. No. This is belonging.

James Lawrence: Yeah.

Robert Cialdini: Together in this particular unit. So to the extent that we can identify and truthfully.

Show people that we share , these identities. And by the way, some of them have to do with something like shared values or shared goals. If you can bring those to the surface and have a wees associated with that, you win. And ,

James Lawrence: how did that come to be? Like , the book went into market [00:21:00] and then was that you reflecting, going like doing , more research, more studying?

There's something like, there's something happening out there that I don't feel ever. Do you think, did something change or did you build on your own work or

Robert Cialdini: No, you, you're right. Something changed and that was. There we're moving increasingly toward tribalism. Yeah. In modern life. Uh, yeah. We, versus they connect, , I had known about this in the past, but I always thought it was an accelerant that increased the impact of each , of the six principles. Yeah. Right. So if you've got that and then you've got reciprocity, you're gonna be more likely, if you've got that and authority, , those people are gonna be even more effective.

But , it stands by itself. It's, it doesn't require one or another of those other, , principles. Like, , I just mentioned with, , Lil Wayne. Mm-hmm. And his, it was, there's nothing else of the principles except that unity. And that was enough to not only [00:22:00] make me think better of his music.

Who want him to be more successful. Yeah. Because he was one of us.

James Lawrence: It's so true. Like it's, I'm Aport fan as well and , if the team wins, it's we won, but if the team loses it's they lost, which I think is an interesting device. But , in the book, , you give the examples , and actually , I knew both of the kind of schemes, but not the detail of it, but the Bernie Madoff kind of scam, which had just such a Jewish businessman, high propensity, , of Jewish people involved in that because they followed him into it.

Then you talk about the Ponzi scheme, Italian Americans, Italians, yeah. All connected and, 'cause there was, , two cohorts of wees in there. Right. As opposed to they, yeah.

Robert Cialdini: So one simple way to engage this, it seems to me is to, . Use the terms we, our, and us in your marketing, in [00:23:00] your communications, in your messaging.

Not you and I. No, we, us. It's our goal, right? Not your goal , that we over here can help you with. , No. Bring that connection together because you have a shared goal and if you've done your marketing right, you've tapped shared values.

James Lawrence: Mm-hmm. And we'll do that. We're run a marketing agency.

We work with clients and client teams, but we'll very much talk about we like we are collectively trying to solve this problem. ? It's not you and us, , we're a team working together to solve , this challenge. No, that's exactly it. Bullseye right there. Yeah. So it's fascinating. And

Robert Cialdini: again, , it's a small, big.

James Lawrence: , Yeah. Well, that's exactly right, isn't it?

Robert Cialdini: Yeah.

James Lawrence: Um, when I was putting together, , my thoughts around today that kind of came up with this very glib, eh, what's the most effective principle? And I then I started listening to [00:24:00] some other, , interviews you've had and it's, there obviously is no answer to that, right?

It's very contextual on the circumstance. But , could we talk a little bit about what are the different contexts that will make one of the particular principles more relevant or more

Robert Cialdini: powerful? Well, certainly, , if you have something that is unique or something that is dwindling in availability and opportunity, then it's scarcity, right?

If you have something with a lot of, , market share with a lot of purchases, , then what you use is social proof. If you've got something that has a lot of authority, testimonials , then you wanna use the authority principle because that's what you've got. That's the one, its engine is running already.

You don't have to create it, you don't have to, , construct it. It's there. You just have to bring it to consciousness, , in people. And then you get not only to be effective, you get to be ethical in the process because you're simply [00:25:00] pointing to something that's truly, , inherent in that situation.

James Lawrence: Hmm.

, And where does Persuasion sit , in this kind of hierarchy? For listeners that aren't aware of it, like, a book that sat in between the original influence and then the updated version with Unity in it, , was a book called Presuasion.

, It'd be just good to talk a little bit about, , the concept and explain it , for listeners, but also how it ties together with

Robert Cialdini: Yeah. So influence and the principles are about what do you put into your message to increase the likelihood of ascent to it?

What psychological principles do you install as you send that message out? Persuasion has to do not with what you put into the message, but what you put into the moment before you send your message so that people are focused on an idea or a concept or a strength [00:26:00] or a trait or a capacity. That you will focus your message on that they haven't received yet.

Hmm. So you've essentially primed them to be readied for , the thing about your product or service that makes it wisest for people to choose you. Right. , Let me give you an example, A study done on, , a company that, , sold online furniture, , specialized in sofas for one week.

Everyone , who came , to the site, , were sent either to a landing page that had. Soft, fluffy clouds in the background or to a landing page that had small coins, pennies in the background. Those people who experienced fluffy clouds were more likely to want to [00:27:00] purchase comfortable furniture.

Those who were focused on small coins were more likely to want to purchase inexpensive furniture. Whatever concept you brought to consciousness before they got the message was what they searched for inside that message. And when they hit on it, that was the thing that they were likely , to go ahead and want to purchase .

I saw an article, , of a Norwegian, Norwegian cruise lines, , they had, a sale for all of their prior customers. If they booked , a cruise during the, , holiday season of this particular year, yeah. They would get a big discount. Right.

So everybody got that message in an email. , And inside the email there was , a clock, that was ticking down as to , how many minutes were left. The hours and minutes [00:28:00] before , the deal went away. Half of them got two ticking clock emojis in the subject line of the message.

So they saw something associated with dwindling time. Yeah. Then when they hit the message that was all about scarcity and a dwindling opportunity, they were 15% more likely to purchase, , a ticket. That's fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. So what, where you focus people first is going to influence , their, , favorability to what comes next.

There was a lovely study where , if you first ask people, do you consider yourself an adventurous person, right?

James Lawrence: Yeah.

Robert Cialdini: And most people said Yes, surprising. But over 90% said yes. [00:29:00] And then you said, well, we have a new product that's never been tried. It's not even on the market yet. Would you like to get this?

Can we. Arrange for you to buy this. I'm adventurous. Surely I have to buy that. I'm adventurous, so therefore I'm going to be more likely to purchase something that's untried and untested.

James Lawrence: It's even the framing of the question, isn't it? Which is then shaping potentially the outcome.

Robert Cialdini: Exactly. But it's where you focus people first,

James Lawrence: which I guess is price anchoring is that right? Which is , you walk into a retail environment and it's a 500 black t-shirt and then it makes the 300 belt look pretty cheap. Even though if you'd walked in and seen a 300 belt, you probably would've walked away.

Robert Cialdini: No, that's exactly right. , , if you ask people the distance to the sun and then show them a bottle of min mineral water, they'll pay more for the di mineral water because they've compare [00:30:00] it. , To a very large number. And then the price of that mineral water is small,

James Lawrence: even if totally disconnected from even, we're not even talking currency.

It's a number. It's, it's, it's a number.

Robert Cialdini: , So that's the idea of persuasion that , there's an amount of persuasive real estate that exists before you send your message. It's not limited to the context of your message, to the boundaries of your message.

No, there's something. Just before you send your message to focus people on a particular item that they will have yet to encounter. But when they do encounter it, it will resonate with where they have been focused. Yeah.

James Lawrence: They've been primed, , to receive that message. Prime is the right word.

Yeah. Also As marketers advertising, we're trying to grab attention, right? And I guess attention sits firmly in that realm .

Robert Cialdini: Yes it [00:31:00] does. We're in an attention economy. , The way we, , can focus people and get them to attend to us as opposed to all our rivals and all of the other information that is cascading down on them every day is crucial.

To getting them to move in our direction.

James Lawrence: Yeah. , Any advice for marketers , how they can , grab more attention , than their competitors? Yeah. They

Robert Cialdini: have to differentiate themselves, and there are a lot of ways to do that, but here's the one that I like, , the best.

, It's to do something that nobody else does. And that is early in your message, you mention a weakness or a shortcoming of what you have to offer. Nobody does that. But by doing that, you establish yourself as a credible source of information. , You know, both the pros and the cons associated with what you're [00:32:00] offering.

And you're honest enough to describe the cons as well. Right. And then you say, however. But, or nonetheless. And then you use that word to bridge to your strengths, right? Yeah. People now process that information about your strengths more deeply and are influenced more greatly by your strengths because you have demonstrated that you're not like everybody else.

Mm-hmm. In fact, you're more honest and credible than any. So now they're gonna assign credibility to your strengths. Look, if you do what everybody else does and just promote all the best things, all the most favorable aspects and features, right? There's a wall of doubt. Why should I believe [00:33:00] you? Because you're like everybody else.

Yeah. Why should I have special reason to believe you and , if you are presenting your best. Arguments early on, and only your favorable argument, they're gonna bounce off that wall and you don't get to use them anymore now because they've been discarded. Yeah. But if you mention a weakness, but know we're not the largest, but

James Lawrence: Yeah.

Robert Cialdini: Right. We're not the least expensive, but Right. The doubt comes down and what follows after the But is your strength. So two of the greatest, , advertising campaigns of all time did this, , Avis, um, rental car,, had , a campaign. We're number two, but we try harder. Yeah. [00:34:00] 700% increase in market share. L'Oreal had a campaign not too long ago. We're expensive, but you are worth it. That's brilliant. 300% increase in market share, right? Yeah. Small, big. Yep. The small. It's a small big, just don't bury the shortcomings, you know, turn lemons into lemonade.

James Lawrence: Yeah. And . It's human nature, right? I think , we get attracted to people that are vulnerable, that are self-aware, that can talk about , their perceived weaknesses. And then when that person then talks about their strengths, we're far more likely , , to believe them, right? As opposed to someone coming in with bravado.

And it's like, well, where do you actually sit on all of this?

Robert Cialdini: You know, there's a study that I love this study. It's , they looked at the annual reports of CEOs that [00:35:00] had something negative to describe something went wrong. And those CEOs who took responsibility said, that was our fault. We didn't prepare properly.

We didn't train our people for this. We didn't think through all the implications versus those who said it wasn't our fault. Mm-hmm. There was the, it was the weather or it was a breakdown in, , the supply chain. It was the manufacturers, those who took responsibility. Had a higher stock price one year later than those who said, no, that wasn't us.

Mm. Those who took responsibility said, and we're going to fix it. We can control. , We're in control of this. We can do something to remedy that. We know what we did wrong. So just as you said, people feel, , positively toward those individuals and trusting of those individuals [00:36:00] who honestly admit their, , mistakes.

James Lawrence: I think , that was a Hilton study years ago, , around the most loyal customers and the loyal customers weren't those that had an incredible experience. They're actually the ones that had a bad experience, that had been rectified in a way that made them feel very cared about and valued, and they would then go on to be the most loyal customers in.

I think from that, I think they gave every manager level. The ability to give 200 bucks to resolve any issue. I dunno, right?

Robert Cialdini: Yeah. So , they then moved , the budgets available to the managers to provide compensation to those people who had made a mistake. And they were so taken by that, , recognition, oh yeah, this was a mistake.

, We messed up, here's something to compensate you. Those people were much more likely to plan. And , this was a hotel chain, more likely to plan future visits. Yeah, it's fascinating.

James Lawrence: Uh, Robert, , I was at a conference two weeks ago and, , it was a lot of talk about AI [00:37:00] and it was quite interesting.

Your name came up and there was, a sales guy there. He was talking about all the kind of emails that he's writing, , and he was an ethical guy. I think , you'd like , the way it was being used. But it was fascinating. , His prompt was, , write a, write an email to someone, yada, yada, yada.

Use 50 words or less. And the last part of the prompt was use the Tio Dini's principles of influence. Yeah. , And he was advocating, this is a room of 200 people to use , your principles in, , generative ai. What, how are you feeling about ai? Like what is it changing? What is it like changing?

Robert Cialdini: , It's seismic. The change is people are gonna be able to do that , and get ai, it shouldn't be something that you just defer to. It should be a tool that you use to improve , the messaging that you employ. . Use it as a learning mechanism for how to do this well. , It's going to be very, , powerful.

And I think [00:38:00] what that gentleman did by saying, essentially use the principles that have a research base, the things that have been proven, that's exactly the right thing to do. These principles each have a lot of research that supports, , and , is grounded in, scientific, um, inquiry. The problem is when somebody says, write me an influential, , marketing, , statement or a letter of introduction, whatever, it's, now you're going to get that, that LLM, that large, , language learning model to go out and get everything, including.

Anecdotes and hunches and speculations and misinformation that isn't based on research. Mm-hmm. That's the wrong prompt, because those models will hallucinate results. They will give you [00:39:00] things that don't exist unless you focus them on something that is absolutely proven by soundly conducted, properly controlled research.

James Lawrence: Mm-hmm. And coming, from a research background right? , It must be seismic for everyone, right. But I think particularly in that space and the kind of , diligence that would support all of your work, um, to have this kind of deep research tool, , which is incredibly powerful.

But yeah, it's, . Not always a guaranteed outcome, is it?

Robert Cialdini: Right. So we're actually developing a bot. That, , is me and I give advice based on my research and whatever I've concluded and said in print or , in, , presentations and so on. So if you ask me a question, you get the answer that I would give based on what , research I've written about.

Not just the research I've done, but the research I felt confident about. Mm-hmm. To, , give, advice. Yeah.

James Lawrence: Do you find it [00:40:00] convincing? Do you find it's giving you the kind of answer you'd give yourself? I'm

Robert Cialdini: impressed.

James Lawrence: Yeah.

Robert Cialdini: I really am impressed so far, but it's not done. We're still in loading it with the newest research and so on, so that , forever being sharpened.

But, , yeah, , I'm, , enthusiastic about it. That's really cool.

James Lawrence: Um, we talked before around Poland. I'm you know, we're all very thankful that, , your untimely demise has not occurred , in Poland. Um, are there any cultural nuances to your work? Yeah, like Australia and America? I think on the face of it are very similar in many ways, but I think there are a lot of differences between Australians and Americans.

Europeans, Africa, south America. Yeah. Asia. , My presumption is that, , these are principles, right? And they should apply universally. But , what are your observations?

Robert Cialdini: Yeah, that's really a good question and, I can say on the happy side, , yes, these principles exist in all human cultures.

They've evolved as part of the human condition, [00:41:00] and, , people who employ them one or another in a message are likely to increase , the probability , of ascent. But depending on the culture, there are histories and precedents and customs and so on that change the weight. Associated with one or another of these.

Hmm. So there's a study done by Citibank , what they did was to go to four major cultures in the world, , and, , ask the , managers . Suppose you had a colleague who asked for your assistance on a project that was not yours, but would require your time, your attention, , maybe even some of your resources or personnel to help with this.

Under what circumstances would you feel most compelled to say yes? Right. And in British based cultures, so uk, [00:42:00] Australia, New Zealand, us, Canada. The answer at the top, it wasn't the only answer, but the one that was at the top. What would get you to do this? Was, I would ask, has this person done something for me recently?

If so, I have to say, yes, it's my turn. That's the principle of reciprocation, right? That's the one that we are, that in our British face, , traditions is, was at the top. It wasn't the same in, , the far East. Yeah, in the far east. The answer was, is the person who's asking this of me connected to my superior?

Hmm. If I say no to this person, I'm saying no to this authority person. And , I shouldn't do that. And so how close is this individual , to my authority [00:43:00] figures , in the Mediterranean, , area. The answer again, was different at the top. Hmm. It wasn't is this person connected to my boss?

It's how closely is this person connected to one of my friends?

James Lawrence: Hmm.

Robert Cialdini: So it's liking now the liking principle, , and then in northern, , Europe and Scandinavia, it was different. Again, at the top it was according to the rules and regulations of this organization, am I supposed to say, yes, this was commitment and , should I be consistent with the organization I have committed myself to?

, And of course in Stockholm, they care about friends and they care about

James Lawrence: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robert Cialdini: Cation and, but the one at the top changes from culture to culture.

James Lawrence: That is a fascinating response.

Robert Cialdini: Yeah. So , it pays to do your homework and [00:44:00] understand what those, , existing preferences are.

James Lawrence: Yeah.

, That is awesome. Um, , what's the funniest example of your work being applied on you? Is there just a moment, maybe funny or a time where you've come home and gone, this is unbelievable. , It's been applied in this fashion or in a famous context or something that's made you sit up and go, wow.

Yeah.

Robert Cialdini: Yeah. No, , there's , an example that got me started in all of this, and that is I was an undergraduate, , at university and , as a student didn't have a lot of money and was living in a dorm. And, , one of my dorm mates, somebody on the same floor came knocking on my door and he was selling magazine subscriptions to Sports Illustrated Magazine.

I didn't have a lot of money, and I'm not that great of a sports fan. I, I'm a sports fan, but I don't need all the statistics, you know? And, , so first of all, I opened the door and he compliment, he gave me a compliment on the [00:45:00] furnishings in my dorm room. And then he said, you know, I've been selling this, , magazine system, but I have to tell you, , , this deal is only good till the end of this week.

You, after that, , you'll lose it.

James Lawrence: Then

Robert Cialdini: he said, and I've been selling a lot of them here in the dormit. There, people just like you have invited most , of the experts in, , sports journalism. Site Sports Illustrated as the best example. So he was using all of my oh six at once and I bought his magazine subscription, and I remember closing the door and leaning back against it and saying, what just happened here?

I didn't want this. , I wanted the money that I gave him. It wasn't the features of what he was offering, it was the way he delivered. It was the presentation of what he was offering. [00:46:00] The psychological factors that got me to say yes. Isn't that interesting? Hmm. That would be worth studying, not just out of self-defense for my own, but a lot of people would be interested in knowing what are , those factors outside of the merits of the case that.

Influence the choice of that case. And so that's got me started on, , studying persuasion. Hmm.

James Lawrence: It's been a fascinating career. What are you most proud of?

Robert Cialdini: So, , I was the Chief Science Officer for a company, , that in the United States called O Power. And they partnered with, , utilities, power companies, , to send each of the customers of those companies, , a report every month that used the principle of [00:47:00] social proof on them.

It said, , here's the amount of energy that you used, , last month.

James Lawrence: Yeah.

Robert Cialdini: And here's the amount of energy of your comparable neighbors, people just like you in your neighborhood. Right. And here's what they were able to do. Right. People who were using more energy than their neighbors used , became less likely to use.

, They followed the lead of comparable others. Right. And after 10 years, we had saved 36.4 billion pounds of carbon dioxide from entering our atmosphere. That's what I'm most proud of.

James Lawrence: It is very cool. And you might've had a bigger impact on that. 'cause , a lot of our utility bills will have , a similar feature on them, right? Yeah. So I suspect maybe that's been used. [00:48:00] It's

Robert Cialdini: been, used outside of the United States. That's right. That's, that's right. , And it was purchased, by Oracle. So, , all I have is the first 10 years, 'cause Oracle won't give that proprietary information.

But in that first 10 years, that's, we saved , 35 point, , 4 billion pounds , of a gas, James, pounds of a gas. Small bags, Robert. Wow. You know, so I have to say, I'm retired now. And when I first started my career, I thought what I'd like to do upon retirement is to be able to turn around and smile at , what went before.

And that project.

James Lawrence: Broadened my smile. That's , a great answer. Um, final question, , I ask this of every guest that we have on the podcast. , What's the best bit of career advice that you'd give to an Australian marketer?

Robert Cialdini: Humanize your communications. Move them [00:49:00] away from the efficiency of technology to human connections.

We are yearning more and more for human connection because technology is separating us. We do things individually. We press buttons and get entertained. We press buttons at work and, , get work, , flow. We press buttons , and learn about , Wikipedia or whatever it is, some topic, right, without other people.

And so we want more connection. So for example, it's not that we have to block. Technology. That's crazy that, that's like a bullet train coming at us. We're no ones, but if we can infuse our messaging, even our online messaging, right? With human connection, people will wanna move in our direction. I'll give you an example.

There [00:50:00] was a study done of 6,700 online, , commercial sites. If the site had a welcoming statement on the landing page, they got significantly more conversions. Another small, big, you just welcome to our site. We're so glad. I mean, that's what you do for somebody who comes to your home or there's a human connection there.

Right? Before they ever read one word of the offer, they were warmed. To it by social approval, by liking, right? So that's the kind of thing we can build more and more of those humanizing connections into our messaging and we will be better, , off for it.

James Lawrence: A great answer.

Robert Cialdini: And yeah,

James Lawrence: you, I think you're bang on.

The more that technology advances the ability to [00:51:00] communicate and relate as humans will actually become even more important, right? ,

Robert Cialdini: I think so. That's how we evolved. , I was interested to see that the two marketing approaches in the last, , decade that had the biggest increase, one was influencer marketing.

Hmm. There's a person there. , And, , handmade products. 37% increase in the last, , in the last decade because there's a person there, it's not a machine. And , we are tilting toward those human connections.

James Lawrence: Really interesting observation, Robert. I could talk to you forever about influence and psychology and marketing and, , I appreciate your time so much and I think all the listeners will have thoroughly enjoyed, , the conversation today.

Robert Cialdini: I enjoyed it as well.

James Lawrence: Thanks, Robert.