SEO in 2022 with Garry Viner

James Lawrence: I am here with my business partner and our head of SEO here at Rocket Agency, the beautiful Garry Viner. Welcome to the pod. 

Garry Viner: Well, I’m looking beautiful today, my hair was shocking yesterday. I had a haircut and I'm feeling good. 

James Lawrence: This is excellent. So, Garry Viner, very broad question to kick things off. How does SEO work in 2022? 

Garry Viner: How does SEO work in 2022? Google has very, very sophisticated algorithms, as your listeners will all know. They kind of rank on 200 odd factors. We are aware of what they are. We're not aware of how they all kind of fit together. But fundamentally, Google is testing to make sure you do certain things. They want you to have a nice, fast site that works well in mobile. They want the site to be secure. They want you to have great content. They want stuff to be easy to find on your website, so structured well. They want you to use kind of natural language. They want you to be creating content that ties back to how people are searching. User intent is a really big focus in 2022. So you don't want to be creating content that's of a different intent to what people are searching for. You want content that is good enough that people want to link to it. 

Garry Viner: I mean, much of that stuff hasn't changed very much. I guess what has changed is everything is moving more and more towards a mobile optimised world. So you want to make sure that your mobile experience is great. You want to be using, as I said, natural language. So the days of kind of stuffing with keywords is well and truly passed. Everything is based on kind of semantic level understanding now of content and lots and lots of technical factors that I've kind of alluded to. But fundamentally, it's still the same three pillars that we've talked about for years, right? Good content, getting links back to your work, and having a site that's kind of technically and structurally sound. 

James Lawrence: And so how do you do that? If we try to break those down… I think that's good. Like, the three buckets just makes sense, I think. Otherwise it's like, where do you start? So if we go to the onsite stuff, like, is there a checklist? How do we go, these are the 5 things or the 20 things or the 300 things that I need to do to make my site technically optimised? 

Garry Viner: It's a good question. Often when I think about it, from an onsite point of view, I guess the starting point is the content. So number one is making sure that you have content that people are searching for and it's visible to search engines. Okay, let's assume you've got that. So when you're creating content, you want to position it in your site in a topic first way. That's something that's really important for Google these days. They want to see all your content arranged topically. So the format of the content is less important. Having blogs here and webinars here, and case studies here, they want to see everything topically arranged. So for Rocket, for example, ideally we would have all our SEO stuff together and all our PPC stuff together and all our digital strategy stuff together. And that might be a combination of great webinars together.

Garry Viner: Once you've got your content sorted, then it's all about making sure that it's optimised in the right way and everybody is aware of keywords. You want to have keywords within your title, your meta description, your headline tags. You want to actually structure a page in a certain way to make sure that you're using not just an H1 tag, but all the various H tags to basically introduce your content, but have kind of chapters down the content. You want to be using lists on your page, anything that kind of gives Google search engines generally an idea of the structure of your content. And then you want to link to it effectively. And linking is not just about having backlinks. It's about having internal links and links high up in the page. It's about having your keywords appearing in the linked text on your pages. So that's called anchor text. And you want to make sure that that's optimised for keywords as well. Lots and lots of signals using what's called structured data markup to explain to Google about how objects kind of relate together on your website. So this is an FAQ, this is a product, this is a review. All these things are kind of important information that allows Google to kind of understand how your site all works together. 

James Lawrence: How important is the technical stuff? I think most of the audience today will know SEO is visibility in Google, good content, some kind of off site strategy, and a site that loads quick. And I think everyone's heard of meta titles and all that kind of stuff, whether they're using SEMrush in house or whether they've been doing this for 10 years. Where do you get to a point where typically it gets so technical, so complex, that it is stuff that you do need to hand over to someone like Rocket vs just doing it in house and ticking all the boxes? 

Garry Viner: You can do some pretty basic kind of technical analysis from an SEO point of view, and a lot of the platforms that you have access to, whether it's SEMrush or ARFs or any of those tools, will give you some basic technical information about your website. And that's good, that'll get you to a fire. That's important stuff to understand things at a kind of higher level. It does often require people with experience, but I would say that but even understanding the fundamentals is kind of challenging for the average person. So you talked about having pages noticed by Google, that's obviously the starting point for any SEO. It doesn't matter how good your content is if Google is not crawling that content and indexing the content and ranking the content, and there's a fair amount of complexity around that. 

Garry Viner: You can say to Google, I don't want to index this page. I do want to index this page. You use a no index directive on a page and they think that's all they need to do. Index these ones. Don't index these ones. What they don't realise, for example, is that Google has to crawl the page first. And in order to crawl the page, it has a limited number of resources. And for sites that become very bloated, it will assign only a certain amount of budget or time to crawling the site. And you can end up with a situation where Google just won't crawl mostly important pages in the site because there's so much blot in there. You often see that on ecommerce sites, for example, or sites with complex filtering mechanisms where you might end up with tens of thousands of variants of the same page with different filters, because every time you put a different parameter in, google will see that as a different page. You can use what are called canonical text to basically say only index one of these pages, but it's still going to crawl thousands and thousands of variants of these pages and it might not get to the important content. You have to manage that.

James Lawrence: The minute we say canonical, I think it's time to move on. What parts of SEO can generally be done in-house by a small marketing team versus the stuff that really should be sitted over to the experts. There's some level of knowledge out there in the Australian marketing community as to, I think, how SEO works generally. But then there's the stuff which I think potentially an expert working on drives real value versus some elements which probably can be done quite well by in house teams. Technical, I think that's good. I don't think we want to get into too much content. I think other podcasts on this pod cover that. I think the off-site stuff is really interesting. I think most in house marketers understand that what made Google special back in the day was that it kind of valued a website based on what the rest of the internet said about that page, versus what the page itself said. Therefore, backlinking has always been a really important part of SEO. Clearly the system got gamed massively probably five to ten years ago, buying links, link farms, all kinds of stuff. But is it fair to say that off-site still matters? As if yes, what are the techniques and strategies that are generally regarded these days as best of breed? 

Garry Viner: Yeah, it certainly matters. Anybody that's kind of putting together a list of the key factors that you should be working towards would include offsite, obviously the thing that you have least control over. So it's an easy one to kind of push to the side and not focus on it fundamentally. So you talked about kind of bad practice and Google and search engines are quite clear that ideally they want backlinks to be driven organically, so they want people to find your content and like it so much that they see value in that for their readers. And so a link, as you say, is basically a gesture of trust or recommendation and they're not going to do that if the content is not valuable to them. So first and foremost, you want to be creating great content. 

Garry Viner: That's kind of obvious and there are ways you can do that. You can look at the content that other businesses are creating on a topic and there's a saying that you might have heard, people talk about 10x content, which is basically look at the content that's ranking position one or two and build something that's ten times as good as that. Now, obviously that's not always that easy, but certainly we might talk more about content. I'm not sure. You said we were not going to go too deep into content, but I guess the one point I do want to make on content is that the days of content for the sake of content are over. It's all about quality content. Fewer, longer form, high quality authoritative content pieces is far more important for SEO than a large number, of kind of trivial 500 word blog articles, right? 

Garry Viner: So let's assume you're creating great content, then you obviously have to get that noticed. So there's traditional outreach where you can employ people to hit up businesses within that niche so that they might have an interest. You can certainly use tools to see what businesses or what publishing sites have linked to your competitors on the topic and see if they'd be willing to link to you. It's always useful to hit up kind of warm context rather than cool context. And so we'd certainly advise that if you deal with a lot of suppliers or partners or even happy clients that you'd be trying to hit those guys up for links. But fundamentally, if you're trying to hit up kind of cool businesses or cool publishers to link to you, it is a challenge. Having a strong social profile is is really important. 

James Lawrence: And does it have to be a link? Like, is a reference to your brand enough? Is, you know, I think you're going to go down that path, but social media post something that's shared, like, is that enough for Google to go, hey, this brand Rocket or Jim’s Plumbing…

Garry Viner: It's definitely moving in that direction. So Google is certainly sophisticated enough to know that if you refer to Rocket Agency without a link, then that is our business Rocket Agency. And so, in theory, it can semantically understand that. And certainly the expectation within the industry is that going forward, the actual link is going to be less important. People talk about citations. That's a citation. It's making sure that your name, potentially your phone number, your address, whatever, is present as often as possible on the web. Now, within social, social is not something that your social rankings have no influence directly within SEO, but it really does play a complementary role in terms of your SEO. So, for example, if you are creating content and you are promoting it in social or organically distributing in social, that's how people become aware of your brand. That's the way that people can link back to you. 

James Lawrence: Hear this concept of digital PR kind of bandied around, being kind of, I guess, a proxy almost for offsite SEO. Is that the case? Is that where things are moving? Maybe explain that to the listeners.

Garry Viner: Yes, that's very much the direction things are going. So anything you can do to promote your brand, whether it's link acquisition, whether it's simply brand awareness, getting your name out there, being synonymous with good content, with authority within a particular industry or a particular topic, is all good. 

James Lawrence: Yeah. What would you say is the biggest misconception that non SEOers have about SEO? 

Garry Viner: It's a good question. I would say I'm going to answer that with what I thought was going to be your first question, actually. I thought your first question was going to be, is SEO dead in 2022? 

James Lawrence: It's on my list of questions to ask. 

Garry Viner: Okay, well, I'm going to get to it. I think the biggest misconception is that SEO does work, or that it's smoke and mirrors. It definitively does work. It's complex, and it requires pulling a lot of different levers at the one time. And I would say, having worked across a number of channels at Rocket, it's certainly the most challenging. But it is quite clear to me that by following certain steps and doing certain things, that you will give your site that far and away the best chance of appearing above your competitors just requires a kind of investment in time and strategy. 

James Lawrence: Why does SEO matter? And I've got my own thoughts on it. But in terms of, compared to other channels, no secret that the SEO industry has probably done itself a massive disservice over the last, you know, 5-15 years in terms of pretty unscrupulous business practices and taking advantage, I think, of the the secret sauce, the mystery ingredient of what SEO is. But why should a well established Australian business where digital's, you know, an important, if not critical, part of what they do, take SEO seriously? 

Garry Viner: There's a few ways to address that. So I guess the the obvious way is that ultimately, with the investment that I referred to, it's self sustaining, right? So nobody will be surprised to hear that investing in paid media costs money. That the Holy Grail, I think, is to develop an SEO strategy whereby it, you know, it's scalable, it supports itself. You get to a point where it cycles along and you are less reliant on large injections of funds to get short-term results. That's kind of key. There is the fact, in an asylum world, all channels will work together, right? So let's say you are promoting your work. You're doing stuff on social, whether it's kind of organic or paid social, and people suddenly become aware of you and they want to kind of search for you. They need to be able to find you. They might not remember the brand, but they will remember the industry that you're in or some of the topics that you were talking about. And you need to be up there to capture the next stage of that journey. 

James Lawrence: I think for me, things change quickly in digital. We all know that. We went from probably 15 years ago, everything was kind of Google driven, right? Once Google became the predominant search engine, digital kind of was fundamentally Google, and then kind of Facebook took off, Facebook Ads took off, eyeballs increased in social, and then suddenly advertising budgets and organic budgets went there. I think for me, at the end of the day, and I'm obviously biased, intent based marketing is the best marketing ever. The idea that you can put an ad or your website in front of a user when they've literally gone and searched for that exact product service, or to solve that problem? Ridiculous! Better than a billboard, better than a TV ad trying to find the needle in a haystack. 

James Lawrence: Google controls 97-98% of the market share in Australia. Of that,search engines push around 60%-70% of the traffic around the internet each day. So as much as people are spending time on social media properties, they're kind of locked into the platforms generally. So the reality is that people are using Google as the predominant search engine. They are looking to solve problems, products, services, whatever it might be. And most people still click on the organic listings, and it does depend on vertical, and it depends on what the first page looks like in terms of maps and ads and whatever else. But I think it's almost SEO became a boom product, then lots of nasty stuff happened people became pretty disenfranchised with. But most of our clients, probably half their traffic, if not more, is being driven by organic, Google, and the idea that you don't invest in it is kind of madness. 

Garry Viner: I guess what I would say is, so obviously the intent stuff is clear, but even within the search ecosystem, you can choose to spend your money on SEO, or you can choose to spend it on SEM. So your paid stuff, and on the one hand, over time, it's become a little more challenging SEO, because you have a limited amount of page real estate. Google has gone from having three paid ads at the top to having 1-4 at the top and 3 at the bottom, and went through a few of some at the sides. So there is, you know, genuine concern that that Google will continue to push that. But for now, that's not the case. We do have that real estate. And fundamentally, I guess the difference between SEO and SEM is that in SEO, it keeps you honest. You allude to kind of dodgy practices in the past, so they can range from anything from keyword stuffing to link forms or any of those things. People have been kind of penalised for that. But these days, Google is so much about delivering what the users want to see, that if you're going to rank, you have to be creating good quality stuff. The onus is on you to be working hard on your content, working hard on your site, making it accessible, making it mobile friendly. 

James Lawrence: Becomes a bit of a flywheel, I guess. Like, stuff that's good for SEO is actually good for your users, for your business in general. 

Garry Viner: We're trying to recruit at the moment for an SEO team member, and one of the questions I asked him is, what's the most important thing in SEO? And obviously it's an open ended question. There's lots of things they can answer. The thing that I'm looking for more than anything is for them to say user experience. UX. Because it's the same thing. What is good for search engines is what is good for human. 

James Lawrence: That was going to be my next question. What are the three top factors in SEO? I can give you the first one is user experience.

Garry Viner: Okay. There you go. 

James Lawrence: But objectively, and I presume that it's a nuanced answer, right. Depending on the client, depending on what their site's like, depending on their content strategy, depending on what off site looks for them, there's probably no cookie cutter approach. But what are, if you had to just barbecue conversation, what do you do for work? I'm an SEO specialist. And someone said, well, what are the three biggest factors? Like hand on heart? What actually are they? 

Garry Viner: It's interesting. I was kind of looking at what other people thought that the top ten were earlier, and there's some commonalities, there's some difference. What everyone seems to agree on is, is kind of quality content is in the top three. Number 2 is accessible into search engines. I think it's just underestimated, making sure it gets harder and harder to make sure your content is indexed by Google. We see sites sometimes that are built entirely in JavaScript. And there are challenges with Google even reading pages. You can have sites that have 10,000 pages of great content and Google doesn't know any of them exist.

James Lawrence: Is it fair to say without putting words in your mouth, is this the super nerdy stuff that we all probably just go, yeah, my site's fine, it loads quick, whatever. But then you guys would look at it and just go, we're looking at it from a completely different viewpoint and these are all these quite tricky technical things that need to be repaired in order for you to actually take a lead. 

Garry Viner: 100%.There's obvious stuff, and the stuff that bubbles along under the surface. We've got a client at the moment that we're working with and as I said, obviously not going to name any names, but they actually recently did a site migration. So they came up with a new site, engaged us at the last minute in that process, and by that point it was kind of too late to tell them that they'd gone down a technological route that was going to be disastrous for their SEO. That's a challenge that I'd like listeners to be aware of, is that if you are planning to kind of restructure your site or rebuild your site, SEO migrations aren't something that you do at the very end - last check before going live. It's something that should be pivotal in your entire strategic process, from choosing a vendor to develop, to the wireframes and the site structure and information architecture and the content that you choose to bring across. Sorry, I've digressed massively here. 

James Lawrence: No, that's great. But I think that also touches on maybe perception around SEO, which is it kind of just is what it is when that's not the case. And if clients are running media camp budgets with big media because you probably have a bit more visibility, transparency, it's every single dollar being spent click through, rate clicks, conversions etc. I think with SEO because it is often so murky, big drops or things just being quite stable for long periods of time. It's never really questioned because you can't definitively say, well, a good job or a bad job is being done. 

Garry Viner: You asked earlier what was one of the things that people have a misconception with SEO. And I'm happy to share a misconception that I had about SEO and that is that I didn't realise just how closely it was related to CRO or conversion rate optimsation. And what I mean by that, is that so much of my time is spent looking at a website from a holistic point of view and trying to understand what it would take to improve a page. And obviously part of that is making sure from an SEO point of view that we have keywords that we're targeting on that page. But more is trying to determine where that page should sit on the site or how that page should be structured, or should we be adding kind of images or videos to the page. Because they're all things that Google wants to see. 

James Lawrence: So it's not lip service when you say kind of user experience. So going back to the question, top three things. One is content. Great content, all the kind of things we've alluded to touched on superficially. Two is visibility. Kind of Google's actual ability to rip through a site and index. Third one. 

Garry Viner: I'm just going to say this traditional on page stuff; making sure you've chosen your keywords correctly, the pages are optimised for them, you've got a good internal linking strategy, if possible, that flows into your backlink acquisition strategy. 

James Lawrence: I know we could go into a rabbit warren on any of these topics. I could ask you about how do you do keyword research, what is a good link, what's a bad link? But I think just to try to elevate it and keep it kind of top level for the listeners. If I'm sitting there, I'm in-house, small marketing team. We got a website. We're dealing with all the same realities of most businesses, where we can't change lots of stuff on the site. We can change certain things. How do I know if my SEO is being done? Regardless, whether it's in-house or with an agency, like, what are the symptoms or kind of things that people are going, yeah, I'm in good hands here. Or actually, I've probably got a problem. 

Garry Viner: I think it's very easy to do SEO tactically and less easy to do it strategically. So I thinkwhether you're doing it in house or whether you're using an agency, you want to understand that the people involved are thinking about it from a top down point of view. So they're not just saying, okay, these are our kind of 50 keywords, and we're going to make minor alterations to pages to try to position these keywords more highly. Your agency or your team want to be talking to you about the structure of your website. They want to be saying to you, all right, you need to be rebuilding these pages. You need to be creating new templates and position these templates in this way. Your blog sucks because blog is a huge thing. Everybody puts their content into blogs. It's convenient. It's not really the best way to use blog. Blogs should be for editorial content, for seasonal content, for industry wide content, but content that relates to your key products and services shouldn't sit in a blog. 

Garry Viner: Or if it isn't a blog, it should be categorised in a very a specific and useful way. We see sites where there's 100 pages of blogs, and what happens is you write something brilliant and it gets some traction on Google, and 4 years later it's pushed to page 100. And Google thinks, well, that's clearly not important content. We have clients that have written amazing stuff over a long period of time, and they've been really deflated by the fact that stuff that used to work for them no longer works for them. And that's what's going on there. It's not necessarily that people are not interested in the topic. It's not even necessarily that the content is out of date. It's often the fact that the site is just structured in a way that doesn't make the most of that good content. 

Garry Viner: And so one thing we're doing with a client very in the near future is a full day workshop where we're basically looking through every single topic and every keyword that could possibly of interest that client and understand how it all fits together as part of the larger user journey for that client, and to ultimately try to categorise every piece of content in terms of the important categories and subcategories and work out how best to create a taxonomy that allows people and search engines to find that content first time, quickly and easily. Because at the moment, as I said, it's not enough just to have a search bar on your site. It's funny that way because search engines don't use that. It's got to be all your good content. It's got to be relatively close to the home page. It's got to be categorised in the right way. 

James Lawrence: That's really interesting. I think that to me, kind of almost shows what is SEO this year vs what it was 12s ago, or 5 years ago when it was do your keyword, research how many people search for it, write blog articles on the topic, 500-700 words. Stuff the key word in there, get some links off site. And that's an SEO strategy where it feels that it's almost what Google's been saying all along, right? Which is create awesome content that solves the world's problem. If it's genuinely good and users can access it, we'll access it, and you will be rewarded. In terms of my next question, I don't want to get into too much technical detail on this stuff, but I think the thing we always get asked, because I'll often deal with prospective clients before they engage with Rocket, is how long until I can expect to see results? 

James Lawrence: And I think there's two prongs to that. One is that there is a feeling that SEO does take longer and that we're all in this under pressure with quarterly reporting cycles and quarterly budgets and am I really willing to invest in something that's going to take time? But I think also a lot of listeners to the pod, they'll have been burnt before, right? They'll have gone with an agency that is kind of basically full of shit and there's a reluctance to kind of sign off on anything that is going to take 6-12 months. And often it is a bit slow moving for a lot of valid reasons. So just can you talk a little bit about that? If you are going to embark upon SEO 2.0, what do time frames look like and when is it a sign that things are under control and just taking time vs when is it a sign of stuff's not happening and it's never going to happen? 

Garry Viner: It's always challenging because every agency is going to want to do research. Any good agency is going to want to do research, right? And there's a number of research projects they're going to want to undertake when they start that work with you. They're going to want to do, ideally, some pretty detailed tech audits. They're going to do keyword research. They're going to do competitor analysis, they're going to do content gap analysis and ideally put together a content strategy. They might do a backlink strategy. So that could potentially be three months worth of research. That might be one month of research if you decide to focus on certain things and you have a large budget. But that's always going to get done. And every agency is for the most part, going to ignore anything that your previous agency has done because the previous strategy, he hasn't worked and so we got to do it again. So you're going to have to accept that that's a part of the process. And anyone who doesn't want to do that is performing a cookie cutter approach to SEO and it's not going to work. 

James Lawrence: How do you balance it with, yeah, this is the same thing I've heard six times before. 

Garry Viner: I don't know.

James Lawrence: Because it is hard. Because I probably answer that question more than you do, maybe in terms of how we work. And I think we do. Then try to lean on the quality of the vendor you're looking at. The awards they have won. The clients have won, case studies, testimonials, speak to people for references and have a clear idea of what their approach is before commencing. And I think that it is about less on metrics in the early days and more about deliverables. Right. The fact that you are having a day workshop or there is a tech audit that is clearly done by someone that knows what to do.

Garry Viner: Some businesses actually prefer to hear that, to be honest. A client we won recently said that the reason we won them is that we were the only agency that didn't blow smoke up their eyes. They said that they'd spoken to a number of people in the industry and for the most part, they'd said that the website was in great naked and they could turn around very quickly. And we came at it and we said, you have serious structural issues with your website. This is the reason why content is ranked in the past. This is the reason why it's not ranking now. In order to fix that, these are the steps you're going to have to take. Now, for those guys, that was music to the ears. I understand that's not going to be music to everyone's earsl. 

James Lawrence: But maybe that answers the question. Which is assess a vendor as you would with any selection. But I think if you're hearing what you want to hear and you're hearing yes, then you're probably going to end up in that cycle of either burning through until you find someone until you get to a point. Where you're ready to actually listen, or maybe you never do, and you basically just check out of doing SEO properly and kind of see that to your competitor. The other thing I'd say is that clearly this shouldn't be carp launched for an agency. I was included to string you along with months and months and months of promises and no actual delivery. You're going to have to show value at some point. One of the main kinds of roadblocks to success in SEO is kind of challenges with implementation. So whether that's actually having roadblocks in terms of development or within an agency to kind of make what in some instances might be kind of changes to the home page that they might not actually feel comfortable with initially, and they have to various kind of chains of command to get those things approved. 

Garry Viner: We see often a lot of really solid SEO strategies flounder just because everybody has to be pulling in the same direction. You need your writers again on the writing piece. We have writers. We don't demand that we do the writing. We're happy to offload the writing to our clients. And the way we kind of handle that is that we will do detailed briefs and this is how a page should be structured. And that's based on competitor research. And we'll hand it off to clients. And then clients obviously have many, many things that they need to be doing, and sometimes those pages don't actually get written. And I'll come back on board in order to look at the strategy kind of four or five months after I've presented a strategy hasn't been done, to find that nothing’s been done. And we've delivered this, but it's not actually been implemented on the website. And so there's very little point in paying an agency to do this kind of work if everybody is not contributing.

James Lawrence: There's certainly things that we can do to help push things through and empower our clients in terms of the marketing team, to empower them within their organisation. But you have to have that buy in, I think, internally as well. I think we'll wrap it up here. But I think lots of good stuff there in terms of why SEO is still important, what is different, but also what's not, I think there's kind of that balance and I think also just misconceptions around what it is and what it isn't in 2022. For people listening who actually might be interested in a career in SEO, how do you end up as a head of SEO, whether it's in house or in an agency? What are the steps to take to kind of end up in a role like yours at some point in a career?

Garry Viner: It's interesting relatively. I mean, if people come into this role from so many different walks of life, my background, I've had lots of careers, but I guess fundamentally it was in the web space as a developer. And it certainly helps to be technical because you're going to struggle. I think the technical side of things is definitely the hardest to get your head around. So if you don't have a bit of a head for numbers and a bit of a logical bent, then will kind of struggle in that regard. We have people that come through from finance backgrounds or communications and marketing backgrounds. New people that start in the agency here find it quite interesting because they might think that it's purely a technical discipline and are surprised to find that it's also very creative. To put together content strategies requires creative skill in order to find the right outreach strategy or to be able to analyse other websites from what they're doing well and what they aren't doing well. Analytical skills and creative skills all come to the fore there as well. There's a mixture of skills that you're going to need, but the people that we look for tend to be ones that come from those kind of disciplines and they impress us with their clear thinking, their ability to express themselves in a clear way because in some ways it's kind of everything, isn't it? It's a bit of art, it's a bit of science. It's understanding business. It's understanding marketing. It's understanding how humans behave. So I think that's also probably part of the misconception is it's not just these kind of people in a dark room reading. Technically.

James Lawrence: Yeah. It's interesting. At Rocket, when we hire, we do a form of behavioral profiling for all the rules that we kind of line up. We identify where we think somebody should sit within a behavioral profile. And we have kind of profiles of the people that have come through our organisation and have done it successfully to kind of measure it up against. And it's actually surprising how different the actual profile you're looking for might be from what you expect that it would be something. Well, Garry Viner, thank you so much for your time today and sharing all of your wisdom on SEO in 2022.