How to Get a Pay Rise with Alicia Lykos

James Lawrence: By popular demand… she's back. The first repeat guest that we've had on the pod. Alicia Lykos, welcome back. 

Alicia Lykos: Thank you, James. Very excited. 

James Lawrence: So you've been on the podcast before where you shared how to hire and develop up kick-ass in house marketers. If you didn't listen to that pod and you don't know Alicia… Alicia is one of Australia's leading authorities on HR and talent optimisation. Former HR consultant at UNSS Australia, Civic Video, HR director at Object Consulting and the SaaS Institute. An accredited Predictive Index certified analyst, and Alicia is currently CEO and Chief Talent optimiser at the Red Wolf Group. So she works with a really diverse range of businesses to use data, to develop and then implement leadership and talent management strategy. 

James Lawrence: So today we are going to be discussing a topic which I think every marketer on the podcast has to be interested in. It's pay rises. How much are you worth? How do you get more money? How do you make bank? How to discuss it? What are you worth? Short term consequences. Long term consequences. I thought in terms of getting into it, for the logical place to start was just the current climate out there. Obviously, it's a strange time. Unemployment rates are low, job openings and vacancies are high. We hear a lot about inflation in the States, inflation in Australia. So I guess you're at the coalface of the talent market in the country. What are you seeing out there? 

Alicia Lykos: Yeah, look, I mean, the Australian Bureau of Stats just released some February data that we've got over 400,000 job openings. 380,000 of those are pretty much in the private sector. So what that's showing us is this absolute boom of job opportunities, whether Australian businesses are thriving at the moment in terms of our economy and how stable it is, interest rates are low. We are seeing businesses who've survived the last couple of years now going, oh, actually, we can start rebuilding and opening new roles and new opportunities. And I think this is then creating a bit of false sense of security for a lot of people, going, oh, actually, it's really easy to get a job, but probably why people are really considering, well, what am I worth? 

Alicia Lykos: And it's interesting, the money conversation, because money is really just actually at the very bottom of our basic needs. So if you think of the Maslow hierarchy of needs, those basic life things we need, often we view money really sitting down there. There's a basic need around money and finances, but that obviously is a little bit higher often the younger you are, because obviously you're probably saving for a house and if you live in anywhere, Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, you're probably really struggling with that concept. So I think it's no surprise that money is top conversation and we don't want that conversation to go away. In fact, this conversation will be paramount, and it'll be at the front of most conversations this year, because we know that when we put together our ten global trends for 2022, pay was one of those trends. Because people may have not taken an increase for a couple of years and backed a business that they were in and gone through that tough time and maybe taken a decrease or has stayed really stable. But now we need to proactively have those conversations on both sides. It needs to be a more proactive conversation. 

James Lawrence: It's a tough one. So, 400,000 job openings at the moment, like, what's typical? 

Alicia Lykos: Typically you'd see it around the 40-50,000. So we're seeing this - I posted a stat on LinkedIn with my network and it's a crazy stat and it's obviously publicly available - but it's in alignment with what everyone is talking about in our space, is that no one's applying for jobs and very few applicants. Well, that's because what if there's 25 of the same roles? People go, I'm not applying for all 25, I'm only going to pick apply for the ones that I really, really want to apply for. Hence our last conversation around attracting top talent. But I think this then starts to impact people in the roles that they're in and really reflecting, well, what am I worth? And I think this conversation will escalate when Australian interest rates go up because obviously if you've got a mortgage and you're on a variable, your mortgage payments is going up. So who are they going to go asking for money? Probably their employer.

James Lawrence: Yeah. And it is tough. Like, inflation is high, right? So it makes sense that what a dollar was worth last year isn't what it's worth now. And you need to earn more money to live the same way you were. So what are you seeing? Like, are you seeing talent move from one employer to another purely based on a 5%-10%, whatever percent increase in salary? People staying put, getting increases at their current employer. What are the trends? 

Alicia Lykos: Well, it depends sort of what industry you're in, but certainly we are seeing people move for more money, but we're actually not seeing money as the primary driver. It's often the carrot. So if you're on LinkedIn and you get headhunted, you go, oh, tell me how much and what's that carrot? And I think, of course, if someone's going to you 40% more than what you're on now, you've got to seriously consider it. But what I think people are truly looking for, and I think if you even ask yourself what are you truly looking for, we're seeing things around flexibility, we're seeing things around career progression, we're seeing things around being empowered in your role, being in a safe workplace where you can have conversations and not be living in fear. 

Alicia Lykos: You can be working for a great culture that's living its purpose. I think we are all starting to question life. They called last year the great resignation in the US and globally they're calling this year the great reinvention. But what we're saying, it's actually really the great reflection because people are really sitting back and going, what do I want? What do I really want? What's going to make me happy? What's going to give me that lifestyle I want? Is this job going to give me that flexibility to have some passions and interests on the side? Is it going to give me that growth? Is it going to be meaningful? Is it going to be aligned with my passion? So we're definitely seeing people move even outside of their own industries to follow their dreams and passions because they're realising that life is more than a paycheck. 

James Lawrence: We've had two years to think. 

Alicia Lykos:  Yeah, we've had two years to think and we've had lockdown and we've had all these things happen. So the great reflection is what I'm calling it and a few of us in the industry, in teleoptimisation are calling it. I'd be thinking to yourself, yes, money is a key driver, but is it the only thing? What are those key things that are really important to you and broadening your thinking? 

James Lawrence: I think I was listening to - there are other podcasts on the market which comes as a shock... 

Alicia Lykos: Shocking!

James Lawrence: I know! I was listening to a podcast recently and they were talking about satisfaction at work and a big study in the States saying that essentially salary has about a 2% impact on your general satisfaction. But we all know that we've got mortgages to pay and cars to pay for and we want to travel and do all the things we like to do. So it clearly is important. And the reason people are listening today is that it does matter. And who doesn't want more money in their pay packet at the end of end of the fortnight? So I think let's dig into it. That's the climate and it's a unique one, which I think also gives people opportunity, right, as an opportunity out there to get paid more and you should get what you're worth with certain caveats around what's actually going to give you satisfaction and long term career growth. But first things first, taking a step back, how do you know what you're actually worth as an employee? 

Alicia Lykos: A very good question and it is a hard one to measure, and sort of the first thing most people go to mind when they think, oh, what am I worth? They go to seek and they go, oh, I'm going to look at my job and I'm going to look at payscale.com and I'm going to work out what my job is worth. In the industry, anything you find online for free is not true. So in a sense it's highly inflated. So typically the data that goes into those is the top 10-20% of the market because the data that's going in from recruiters and things like pay scale is from people who have moved. The only way to get accurate market data of what particular roles are worth in particular industries is actually to buy the data. And that's through an Aon Hewitt or a MRSA. And that's what companies do. 

Alicia Lykos: So companies will typically buy the salary survey data and then benchmark their staff to that and go, well, okay, this is what a marketing analyst is worth and a digital marketer is worth. And they've got pay scales in terms of the 50th percentile, or you can pay at the bottom 25th percentile all the way up to the 75th percentile. So some companies make a really clear decision about where they want to pay their staff. Some companies just wing it and go, oh, we're not going to buy data, we'll just work it out. We kind of get a feel for the market, which is fine, and many businesses have to do that. The only way to get an accurate reading on what is everyone else getting paid is through buying that data. Which most people aren't.

James Lawrence: They're kind of different things, aren't they? Like what everyone else is getting paid isn't necessarily what you're worth. 

Alicia Lykos: Correct. And I think when we start to talk about worth, we have to have the conversation around value. And value is around the job that you're doing and the value that it brings to a business. Not, I've spent X amount of hours working and it's $25 an hour, or whatever it might be. It's about this task or this project. What is the value of this thing that I'm building, creating, delivering upon worth to the organisation? Because how much can the business then sell it for or deliver it for? And at the end of the day, you're still a single person. It's probably multiple people that go into delivering a single thing. And then, as we know with businesses, there's typically what we call a three times formula that usually is applied to an employee. So I think you do need to think about the value versus your worth, the value that you're providing through your role to the business. 

James Lawrence: Obviously, if you're an employee, you don't have access to the AONs and the Mercers and whatever else, what do you do? Because often job ads, like, it's frustrating to me as an employer, like the idea that job ads go up and don't give a salary range. If I was on the other side, I go into a supermarket, I know what something's worth. You're going to drag me through three interviews and then lowball me. How do you get a bit of a handle on, I'm a certain type of marketer of this many years experience in this kind of space, I should be worth X, like, do you just rely on, as you said, the seeks, the pay scales, to get a bit of an indicative kind of range? You speak to your colleagues.

Alicia Lykos: Yeah, I think you've got to try and start somewhere. And so definitely having a look at those. So Hayes usually put out some good data because they look at such a large sample size. What you don't want to be doing is going, oh, five people wrote on this blog, this is what they've been paid. Well, that's not very helpful. You want to look at as big a data set as you can. So Hayes are very good. Some of the very large recruitment companies will do huge amounts of recruitment in a particular role, so they're the ones you'd be looking at. Going through seek ads is a very risky game because you don't know enough information about that company, their climate. 

Alicia Lykos: So I would typically get you to have a look at recruiters data more than seek ads and then have conversations with people who are in the industry in terms of other senior people that might recruit those roles in the team. So again, I always say, in the business world, it's all about your network. It's about the community groups you're in. It's about your mentors and coaches and your contacts and being able to pick up the phone and have a conversation, say, hey, you work in a pretty similar industry, or you've been in these roles before. Want to have a conversation with you about typically, where would you see these roles sitting? And there's an importance to differentiate roles to an individual. How much would this role be worth in an organisation? You coming in with a different skill set, might have a higher value, but you still need to think about what's the role worth.

James Lawerence: I think that's a really good distinction. I learned that lesson probably badly many years ago. But asking questions around what a role is worth as opposed to what someone gets paid, very distinct and I think also disarming. And it also helps as an employer when we say, well, the role is worth X for us and what you might be worth in a different role is a different conversation. I think it takes a lot of the emotion out of the discussion around salary because then that's really practical, right? Obviously if you're an employer, then you can weigh up whether you want to pay for the higher quality data. You're an individual looking at the recruiter stuff. Do they sometimes kind of put higher salary rates than you might expect to kind of bait and switch people do you think? 

Alicia Lykos: Typically you would see those being always the top end because you got to remember there are people who've moved and accepted a role in the last six months and therefore it is going to be the top. So that is always going to be an inflated amount, but it would be indicative of if you put your hand up for a job in that space, what you're likely to get paid. So I'm not saying everyone in the industry is being paid that by any means. There'll be many people in a broader, probably 20% banned around amount. So think of it that way. If you're looking at that data, that is the top amount, don't think you're getting more than that and then go down by about 20%. And that's typically the range most people will be getting paid. 

James Lawrence: I think that's a good starting point. So you look around or you've spoken to friends, you know that you might be underpaid or whatever it might be. How and when to approach it. 

Alicia Lykos: It's a really interesting one because a lot of companies don't, for many reasons, don't proactively have these conversations. So if you're in a smaller boutique type of company, you got less than maybe 100 or 50 staff, there's a good chance there's not a formal process in place that says, every April we're going to have salary reviews and it's everyone's getting a conversation. If that's the case, great. You need to wait for that unless you see something particularly disarming that you need to deal with. For example, you get headhunted. If you're getting headhunted, coming in at the last minute and going, I've been given an offer, these are really complex things to navigate because you need to think about it from the employer's perspective. Do you tell them earlier on? Do you tell them later at the very end when you get a job offer? There's probably different perspectives on all of that, but they're the reasons why you might proactively have a conversation about your salary outside of cycle. 

Alicia Lykos: And then for the companies that aren't having a cycle, like, there's no formal process and you have to go to your manager, I would typically be going directly to your manager and using your 1:1’s as an opportunity to ask questions. So don't go in and go, “I think I'm worth more money and I want to have a conversation about that”, because that's not helpful. You want to go in and say, look, I really want to have a conversation about my career development here with the business in terms of what I'm passionate about and where I can add the most amount of value. And would love to have a development based conversation about my career progression in the organisation, and then start engaging in both a development conversation and the pay associated with that. 

Alicia Lykos: So I think leading with money is... I wanted to use an analogy there, but I won't. Leading with money is just not a good idea. It's like leading with sex on a first date, you know what I mean? You just don't because it's rude. So going in and going, I'm worth more money. And I have been on the other side of too many of these conversations. Can I tell you? Being in HR my whole career, where people just send off an email and go, I'm worth more money, and they just write these really narcissistic emails. And it's not their intent, but the other side of it is, who is this person? And the audacity of them? So I think you do have to sit back and have a conversation in a very rational, pragmatic way and then you're going to engage in a more rational conversation with the other person. 

James Lawrence: Because I think people find this really difficult. Like people don't like talking money, and there's a whole bunch of stigmas connected to what you earn and whatever else I think it is, be a lot of people listening find it very uncomfortable, the idea of asking for more money and I think worrying about the downside if they do ask for more money and they're not given it. So I guess the first one there being, if you don't have a locked in annual or quarterly or whatever it is process where it gets reviewed, raise it. But raise it in a phased or stepped approach, being I want to talk about my long term career here. And then slowly introduce the concept that maybe the role that you therefore are doing, and what you're currently being paid isn't market for that. 

Alicia Lykos: Yeah. And I think it's asking the question. And my advice when we do management coaching is always lead with questions, don't lead with ammunition. So if I was going to go in and have a conversation about salary, my first question to my boss would be obviously about development, but what's the process around salary reviews and salary discussions with the business? How are they typically handled? And see what they say and say, well, what would your advice for me be if I wanted to have those type of conversations? 

James Lawrence: Asking for a friend. 

Alicia Lykos: Correct. I have disarmed my boss. My boss is like, my advice is you should put this and this together, or they're going to help you because you're genuinely saying, what's the process and what advice could you give me if I wanted to engage in those conversations? Bam! 

James Lawrence: That's excellent. And we've definitely had staff over the years that have asked the complete wrong way and it just gets you backed up. But I think if it's more about you're kind of brought along for the journey, the outcome potentially very different. So, framing it in the right way. That, to me, is probably someone who's more in a position where they're reasonably happy with their current employer, but they just feel that maybe what they're earning isn't what is fair, or they could be earning. If it is someone who you're looking to jump ship, I think this is only relevant if you actually don't mind your current place of work. You're getting hit up by recruiters, you've been offered another role on the face of it similar, there's risk with moving. Will the culture be as good, whatever else, because you kind of started to touch on it in terms of or do you let your current employer know that you're starting to look around, or how does that work? 

Alicia Lykos: Yeah, transparency is a really hard one with this, so advising your employer that you're going to actively start looking is a very risky thing to do. So if I'm going to give an employee advice here, I would say, sure, honesty is wonderful, but telling your employee you're actively going to look for a new job is a very bad conversation to have because from the employer's perspective, you're going to go, oh, no, do I start recruiting for your job now? Because it takes three to six months to fill your job. I'm going to start recruiting for your job now. So. It's just not helpful. It's an interesting one, though. 

Alicia Lykos: So you also need to know your own dynamics and where you're at, and is there someone in a succession for your role. Is this going to hurt the business? I wouldn't be as open as saying, I'm actively looking for a new job and I'm taking interviews. That is probably not my advice to you if you're an employee. However, if you're unhappy where you are, you should definitely have those conversations, and typically I like you to categorise them in four areas. I'm unhappy with my job. So job is the first category, whatever reason that might be. I don't feel empowered. I don't have the tools, I don't have the resources. I actually hate my job. It is boring. It's not leveraging my skills. 

Alicia Lykos: The second category is manager. That's a harder conversation to have if your manager is the one you're having the conversation with. I don't like how I'm being managed. I'm being micromanaged. I am, I don't know, dispowered… all those things. The third category is team. So how do you feel about your fellow team? And it could be teams, other teams that you deal with. You might love your job, love your manager, you hate someone else in your team or another team. And the fourth thing is the culture or the organisation. So you might want to have a conversation around, I love my job, love my team, love my manager. But I don't believe in this organisation. Like, we're doing nothing good for the world. We're advertising gambling machines, and I can't do it anymore. Well, I can't fix that for you. I don't align with the values, I don't see the vision, I'm not inspired by the work we do or the organisation is just poorly run. 

Alicia Lykos: Okay, so those four categories are a really great way to structure a conversation with your manager about any levels of dissatisfaction you have, because what it allows you to do is complement the business on things that you do like. I do really like my manager, my team, and my culture, but it's the job that's the problem. And then you can have a really clear conversation around the job. Like, let's talk about finding new roles and opportunities of things that can expand your development. If it's around management, well, that's a whole different kettle of fish. You can talk about how you need to be managed. So I think it helps you go in more prepared. Rather than I'm unhappy, which is such a vague conversation. 

James Lawrence: Yeah, that's it. And it probably also helps because I think often if you're dissatisfied at your work, you can't always put your finger on the pulse. I think it also helps you in your own brain, work out where that dissatisfaction lies. And I think it's an interesting point you raise in terms of do you go into your current employer and say, I'm looking around for new work? I need more money? Certain workplaces, I imagine that will go down very badly. Certain workplaces will be, let's have a conversation about it and whatever else. But we do look at right person, right seat. We’ve got lots of people in our business who, once in the right seat, right person, great cultural fit… got to a point where they didn't like the job anymore, and so it's, okay, cool. Let's work on ways to move you into a job function. A team where you are motivated and learning and all that. And lots of successful examples of that, which I guess is a good open conversation to have, but probably kind of, I guess, interrelated to the pay rise bit, but also a little bit seperate as well. 

Alicia Lykos: And I think those categories are interesting because you'll notice that. So they're what we call the four forces of disengagement. So if there's something disengaging you at work, it's going to be one of those four, something within those four elements. And you'll notice that money is not in those. There is no money box because we know that the stats would tell us that money is such surprisingly a small motivator for people. And this is why we, we see that there's a lot of data around this, but basically, statistically, if you go into your employer and say, oh, I want $20,000 more, I want a big increase on what I'm on, let's say the organisation says, yes, your high post, that pay increase lasts about two weeks. It's really short. And then the disengagement kicks in. You still hate your job. Like, if you are unhappy and you're just hoping for more money, and for all of you out there who've earned great money in a job that made you very sad, you could almost have been paid you 50 grand, you're still unhappy. The money is not fixing that. You're doing a job that you deeply, deeply don't enjoy. 

James Lawrence: So I guess the premise of this podcast is, if you're unhappy in your job and you think money, don't listen to these podcasts. But if you're happy in your job and no job is perfect, but if generally you're happy and it's a place that job, manager, team, organisation are things you can work within, or you're looking at a potentially new job that you think will tick those boxes, obviously, we'll all take more money for the same role, right?

Alicia Lykos: Yeah, it's a really interesting concept because I think that the other thing when it comes to money is how many other options there are. So yes, it's very important we're all paid appropriately for the job that we do. However, we also know that there are lots of other things that go into making you a successful, happy, thriving employee. And some of those things are typically around career development. So the other way to structure salary conversations, and this is kind of if they don't go the way you had planned; “I'm very happy where I am and I'm not actively looking, but I just know that I need more money and I haven't had a pay rise in two or three years”. Like, “I'm feeling very stagnant and I want to have a conversation”. Please go and have those conversations. That is so very important. You need to be earning what you're worth. 

Alicia Lykos: It's very important for lots of reasons, including your own mental health. It's like I'm not being taken advantage of. So if you're being underpaid, please address those things proactively. If for whatever reason those salary conversations don't go as planned, maybe you don't get all the money you wanted. I would use career development as another card up your sleeve because typically what employers are more likely to do or happy to do is actually allocate you budget for training or career programs or mentorships or coaching, that might be several thousands of dollars. So if you can't get a salary increase, which from a business perspective sits in their PNL in a very clear line around wages and costs that they carry year on year, including leave. And lots of people don't understand, because it's just not in your world. As an employee, they may be more inclined to do either a one off bonus or an allocation of training funds for you. 

Alicia Lykos: So I think knowing how to have those conversations as well as a backup or as a part of what you're looking for, so you might say I'm looking for a $5K increase in my salary. And because of where I want to be in my career, I have already written my own development plan. And here is where I see the opportunity. And for me to do this plan, it will allocate $1,500 for this program, and I want $500 to go into this community group… and really have a clear plan around why you're asking for what you're asking and how it's going to improve the company. 

James Lawrence: And that's the thing, right? I think we're both, I guess we both sit both sides on this conversation. And as an employer as that's fine, but what value to the business as well? It's kind of got to go both ways. I think that my next question was around short term pay rise versus long term career growth. But I think we've kind of covered a lot of that in terms of; money is important and you shouldn't be underpaid and you have to feel good about it, but it's not a panacea and it's not going to mask over an imperfect workplace or a job for you. I think this question might be more directed maybe at younger marketers early on in their career. I think if you're seeing it, you probably have the ups and downs and you know, that jumping ship to a culture that's not going to be as good might actually make you far less happy as a human. What do you do? Like, you're a grad and you come in on a grad role and then suddenly recruiters hounding you on LinkedIn, I've got this role and that place is desperate for someone with two years experience. You got one that's close enough and you've been given a salary increase of 30%. What's your advice there? And let's not be too biased. I mean, we're both employers and we want to hang on to grad people, but what’s super attractive? 

Alicia Lykos: I think that's the challenge for companies when we build those grad programs is how fast we really have to accelerate their salary. And every six months really is often what they need to be doing to keep that bump just ticking along. Otherwise they get caught behind very quickly because we know the fastest exponential salary growth does happen earlier on in your career. That's the reality of it, if you look at that curve. So I think if you are that newly found grad who's done their first year, it's all about where do you want to be, what's going to be the best thing for your career? And that's a hard thing to think about when someone's dangling a carrot in front of you. 

Alicia Lykos: And I would be having a look at the people around you. How long have they been with that business, what's their journey been? Have you seen people that, oh, this individual has been here for five years and they're a senior account manager, like, whoa, they were in my job only a few years ago. Because this company does develop its people. If you're in those type of cultures, hold on to that job. However, if you look around and you're like, man, this place burns through people like there's no tomorrow and people have to move to get any development. Well, maybe you need to move too. So I think it actually has a lot to do with the workplace that you're in and the climate that you're in. But the best thing you can do is go and have some conversations with people around you in other departments and message them on Slack or pick up the phone and say, hey, I want to have just a real quick career conversation and find out more about your journey with the company and just see what their journey has been like, especially if they've been there for a couple of years. 

Alicia Lykos: Did they have to ask for their promotion, were new roles creative for them. Because if you're also in a thriving business that's growing, there will be more opportunities for you. So again, it's very climate and business dependent. But if you're in a growing organisation that's typically inclined to promote from within, man, that is a gold mine. Stay there. Versus jumping ship, because you may jump into a ship that's got a toxic culture that doesn't promote from within and you won't get any more progression. 

James Lawrence: Where I feel so biased on this, because as we do have a culture, where people do move through and they do get promoted, and you do go from being a coordinator to a manager to a senior. And I don't say this out of interest as being a business owner, but it kills me when I see good young kids that I want to hang on to that, do take that short term pay increase to go to a role that you just look at and go, there's no growth there. And if you'd stayed here, once again, very biased. The culture is good, you're learning, you're recognised. You would actually know what will happen in two years time, three years time, you're not in the place you should be. 

James Lawrence: Final question, I think how do you actually prepare for that meeting? We've talked about the sensitivities around it. Don't be a bull in a china shop demanding it in the first meeting. Don't send the email saying I want this. But if you actually do get to the pointy end, how do you do it? Because it is hard. We don't like talking money. Even in foreign business dealings, you don't feel comfortable talking cash. And this is the most personal cash that we get. And whether you're a senior marketer that's been around for 20 years or whether you're 30 years, or whether you're a year into a grad program somewhere. Practical advice on actually asking for salary and negotiating, and what do you have a right to say and what should you maybe stay quiet on? 

Alicia Lykos: Look, I think the key thing is you don't compare yourself to others because that would typically be like, oh, you've gone and talked to other people inside the business. Pretty much every company in Australia has got pretty tight confidentiality clauses. Whether you know, exist or not, you really can't talk about salary with others, even though, there have been articles out there that have said go and ask everyone else around you and ignore your confidentiality clause. If you breach that, some employees will get their backup and go, what do you mean you went and talked to everyone about their salary? And they may have reasons to terminate you on the spot. So you need to be very careful not to do that. 

Alicia Lykos: But what I would say is you are like any other business conversation, go in prepared with evidence situations, with a lot of facts and data around it. What are the things that you've accomplished? What's been your growth journey? Where did you start? Where are you at now? Where have you put your hand up for additional responsibilities? How do you not only perform well in your role, but you add value to the organisation? Give examples of how you've displayed the company values. You put your hand up to be on social club committee, and you've helped volunteer, and then you were a buddy for someone. And often those things your manager doesn't remember - that sounds terrible - but they don't because they're managing ten other people. So it's your job, and please do not inflate this. Don't inflate it like a sales pitch deck. That's false. Because your manager will also go, that's not true. So they will call you out on stuff that's not true. And I have seen many cases where people said, oh, I was responsible for the largest deal that we've ever done. And the CEO is like, no you weren't. You're in the meeting, but you are not responsible, so don't inflate it. Don't BS. 

Alicia Lykos: But I think especially when you start to show your alignment with the organisation, so whether that's from your own jobs, performance perspective and how you've really gone not just done the job, but you've gone above and beyond in certain areas and then talk about your alignment to the organisation and its purpose, its values as well, especially if it's a values driven business. How have I displayed your company values? This is showing a well rounded employee. And I would also go in with your future development plan for yourself. So I've sat down and thought about where I want to go, where I've been, but where I want to go in the future. And I know I've got a learning journey to get there. I've outlined some things that I want to do to get there, and this is I want to get. I talked on my last podcast about the 70-20-10 model. It's 70% experience, 20% exposure, and 10% on education. Just map out a few things in those areas. And here's where I see myself. Therefore, for all these reasons, I am looking to get a pay increase that's in alignment with what I'm presenting here today. There is some mixed messaging about whether you go in with a number. 

James Lawrence: That was my next question. 

Alicia Lykos: I do encourage you to go in with a number. And the reason I say this is because I've been on the other side of the table too many times. And they go, oh, I'm on 70k and I want to pay increase. And we go, okay, how much are you looking for? And they go, I don't know. You tell me as soon as you do that, I am like, discrediting you. I want you to at least have thought about it. What I'm looking for, for this increment is I'd love to be on 80k if that means that for me, I'm seeing that it's moving and I'd love to have another conversation in twelve months time, and for this to kind of be a pattern as long as I can continue to prove myself. And I'm happy to be outlined with KPIs. Don't go in and go, I want an extra $50,000. More like, don't be crazy. 

James Lawrence: Do you ask for what you expect, or do you ask for twice what you want and then expect to met halfway? 

Alicia Lykos: Look, I think you'd be surprised. People think it's like they think it's a car negotiation. It's not. Go in and say for this amount of money, this would keep me really focused, engaged, and I wouldn't need to think about it anymore. 

James Lawrence: Take money off the table.

Alicia Lykos: Just give them the realistic number. Please don't go, oh, I'm going to say I need 95, knowing that they're going to give me 80, because then I feel, as the employer, I haven't given you what you wanted, and you're going to be disengaged versus I've actually met you where you're at. I don't think employers in all of my time, have we deliberately negotiated on a reasonable offer. If you come in with something reasonable, we're very likely to proceed. It's when we get the unreasonable inflated ones that go all the way up to the CEO, and they laugh at it. Let's be honest. They do laugh at it and go, what the hell? And then we have to justify it. So I think keep it in something that's reasonable. 

Alicia Lykos: That the golden rule I give people, is 10%. And that's a really interesting one because for smaller salaries, if you're on 60k and you say 10% at 6k, it might not seem like enough sometimes, so that the lower you are, it's a harder one. But if you think about CPI, so that standard salary increase companies do globally hovers around 2% at most. So 10%, when I used to work in global companies was for a promotion. So if you're asking for more than 10%, you really need to think twice about why you're asking for more than 10% increase on your salary. So they're just some guidelines. 

James Lawrence: I think that's right. And obviously the current environment, different industries, it's a slightly unusual circumstance. And as an employer it feels good when someone comes to you and you know that if you can kind of come to agreement on the money, there's actually a plan there, you know that in your mind they're bought in for the next twelve months, they've got a clear plan of what they want to achieve. If you give them what they want, and it's a reasonable ask, if they can then deliver the same for the next twelve months, they're going to get the same. And there's this nice positive pattern that works for both sides. And yeah, I think being asked for a really high ask, knowing that it's never going to be given, you kind of feel you haven't given what they want, are they kind of going to be out looking at other roles in the next six months or whatever.

Alicia Lykos: And your employer doesn't want to negotiate with you. Sorry, we don't negotiate. You don't want to be in that situation where you're in an official salary negotiation again, just go in with realistic, this is what I think, and no I'm likely to get. 

James Lawrence: And I'm worth a fair exchange of value, right?

Alicia Lykos: I think that's exactly, yeah, that's what both sides want.

James Lawrence: Alicia, that's been awesome. So good having you back on the pod. I think some really practical takeaways there as to how to actually go about, first of all, ascertaining the value of the role you're doing. Might be worth looking at ways to assess that. But then also I think weighing it up more broadly as to is money everything and what other things that make for, I think, a satisfying kind of work life balance. So Alicia, thanks for being back on the pod and hopefully we'll have you again soon. 

Alicia Lykos: Thanks for having me.